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Subject: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics

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Jack - Iowa    Posted 09-30-2018 at 17:15:57 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Per previous post, I was using a sickle bar mower. Over a couple of days I noticed the Touch Control Lever moved up on it's own. Later I had a couple of instances when the mower would not drop all the way without some horsing around on the controls. Then it refused to lift!

    Pulled the right inspection cover. My hands are too big to get in there but was able to get a finger on the end of the Control Valve Shaft and confirm it does move with the Touch Control Lever.

    Today I drained enough fluid to see the Pump relief valve. I see no signs of fluid coming out of it. However, as I was watching, three times the Lift Control Lever Fork moved towards the rear of the tractor. I did not have my hands on the Control Lever at the time.

    What is the next step?

    Jack

    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 10-01-2018 at 09:44:36 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Problems like won't lower and won't raise often have something to do with the relief valve. The relief valve can get stuck where it won't allow the lift to go down, and it can stick so fluid is always relieved back to the sump so the system can't make pressure. Both of those problems are usually caused by dirt/water in the fluid. The control valve can also get stuck, but since that one is moved by the touch control linkage, the worst thing that can happen is the linkage comes loose from the valve. I have temporarily "fixed" my lift by reaching in there "tractor off" and working both valves by poking with fingers. On the 9N/2N the relief valve is next to the control valve and both are below the PTO shaft, so you don't want to be sticking your hand in there with the tractor running. The control valve is shaped like a "T" with the touch control linkage spring-loaded on each end of the "T". It's not too hard to disconnect that linkage, but it can be a royal pain to reconnect. You have to get a hand on each side of the linkage, spread them apart, and guide each end onto the ball ends of the "T". It's easier with two people, but you still have to work thru the small inspection holes, mostly by feel. I made a special tool from a small block of wood that can be wedged between the linkage arms to hold them open. This makes reattaching the linkage easier. Get one end on the ball, align the other side, then flip the wood block out with a spare finger. I think, with the linkage off, the control valve can be pulled completely out. Not 100% sure about that, it's been a while since I had to fiddle in there. My hands are also size XXL, but I was still able to get one in there.
    Here's a photo of my special tool, and the two valves. Looks like an open end wrench can be used to remove the relief valve. Remove them clean them and replace. Lift should start working again unless there are other linkage problems.

    A permanent fix for sticking valves is to drain, flush, and put new fluid.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-02-2018 at 08:00:13 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Would you have the length measurement of your special tool? Looks like I'm getting closer to needing it.

    Thanks,

    Jack

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-01-2018 at 10:12:37 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Thank you!

    If the relief valve is stuck releasing the oil back to the sump will you not see turbulence? I have drained the fluid down to just below the top of the relief valve and see no turbulence.

    I was able to get a finger on the T and confirmed it was moving with the Touch Control lever. Is it possible for the spool to become detached from the T shaft?

    My first impression was the oil was clear and clean however as I have drained it, that in the lower area of the sump does not appear as pure. Would you advise I drain, flush and refill before I go any further?

    This tractor has spent most of the last 20+ years only being occasionally started and used. Mowing with the sickle bar was the heaviest work it's done in at least 10 or 15 years.

    Jack

    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 10-01-2018 at 11:04:48 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • How old is the fluid? The easy answer is if it looks bad it is bad, or if it has been several years since a refresh... Just about anything can happen with old fluid. Obviously dirt, less obvious is corrosion from moisture that forms in there when the tractor sits. Moisture goes right to the bottom of the sump and is the first thing sucked into the pump when things start flowing again.

    With the PTO engaged and the pump turning, you should see something going on in there, when the touch control is moved to the top. Turbulence or leakage from the top cover will indicate where the problem is.

    If touch control is moving by itself, the friction disc may need to be tightened or rebuilt as TOH already mentioned. Even if the lever won't stay put, the lift should still go to the upper transport position when the touch control is raised to the top of it's travel. If it ain't the valves, linkage or pump problems are next. That usually requires pulling the top cover and dropping the pump to find problems. At that point, you have to go by the directions in the FO-4.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-01-2018 at 11:58:42 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • I've only owned the tractor about 20 years and know in that time the fluid has not been changed. It's time! Read and downloaded a write-up you made regarding proper fluids and it happens I have a new pail of the proper fluid on hand.

    Before I drained any fluid I could see a small amount of turbulence in the front left corner but no fluid coming down from above. Could also see a little turbulence around the PTO shaft which I would think was normal.

    Only periodically do I see the touch control move on it's own. That has only happened since my problems have started.

    Now trying to decide if my next operation should be to flush and change the fluid or if I just drop the pump first. Advice greatly appreciated!

    Jack

    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 10-01-2018 at 15:19:30 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • I may be getting my lefts and rights confused, but there is a steel tube that transfers fluid pressure from the pump flange up to the top cover. If the turbulence you saw was near that tube, they have been known to rust out and spring a leak. If necessary replacing the tube is possible, but I'd have to do a search for photos and description.

    The tube shows up in some of the photos in the FO-4 so you should be able to determine if that lines up with your turbulence.

    I dropped the pump on my tractors as soon as I got them because there was no way to know if they had any maintenance in the last 30 years, and they were full of sludge that I felt could only be properly cleaned manually thru the big holes. Complete rebuild kits for the pumps were expensive last time I checked, but individual gaskets, seals, and parts were not bad if specific problems were discovered. Fortunately, the one time I had a problem with the pump, I had a spare on hand that I could swap in there. The broken pump is in my stack of stuff to be rebuilt or sold for parts some day.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-01-2018 at 16:25:45 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • I had also found a post by TOH in which he mentioned the rusting tube and the testing of it using air. With the fluid as low as I now have it, I do not see any turbulence except by the PTO shaft.

    Neither my FO-4 (copyright 1953) or my New Holland Assembly Manual and Service Parts Catalog show that tube.

    In line with the "try the easy first" idea I think I shall drain, flush and refill.
    Will Diesel Fuel or Heating Oil work? I have no idea where one would get Kerosene any more.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 10-01-2018 at 08:15:19 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Adjust/repair the control linkage. I would suspect the friction disk is worn and you may have other issues to go with it.

    TOH

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-01-2018 at 08:43:30 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • You're talking the friction disk on the Lift Control Lever Assy? It's the "other issues" which have me worried. There is absolutely no lift.

    This is my first venture into one of these so am completely ignorant about it!

    Thanks,

    Jack

    JMOR    Posted 10-01-2018 at 15:40:13 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • You stated, " However, as I was watching, three times the Lift Control Lever Fork moved towards the rear of the tractor. I did not have my hands on the Control Lever at the time.". Do you know what if any movement the touch control lever made when you observed the fork moving toward the rear?

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-01-2018 at 16:16:38 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • No I don't however on those occasions when I was mowing I noticed the Touch Control Lever had moved so presume it did on these also. I went out to the tractor a few minutes ago to look again and found the Touch Control Lever was not against the upper stop so it must have moved. Where would we get back pressure to make that happen?

    I will check the disk and adjustment the next time out.

    Jack

    JMOR    Posted 10-01-2018 at 16:42:11 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • A bit strange to me, as there is a substantial spring stretched between the hinged (mid-point) of the yoke and the front edge of the lift ram cylinder and this spring is stretched when touch control is moved to LOWER, so I would expect the opposite movement of TC lever that you are seeing. When moving the lever, I would expect more force to be required when moving toward LOWER than when moving toward raised. It is very important to realize, that this spring is really the only force moving the valve, whether to LIFT or to LOWER, as the fork will simply un-hinge without this spring force. Verify the spring for sure & watch for fork un-hinging when Lower or LIFT TC movement is initiated.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-01-2018 at 17:34:03 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • I have not seen that spring! Cannot say I've gone looking for it but will in the morning. Have not noticed the fork unhinging but now sure I'd be aware.

    JMOR    Posted 10-01-2018 at 19:12:25 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • The spring is "M" in drawing. Also see in picture.
    Another problem that is more difficult to see for casual observer is the Tee moving but the actual valve spool itself NOT moving(See 3rd picture which is labeled 8N, but the discussion still applied to 9/2N). Typical with sticking spool.


    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-01-2018 at 19:32:35 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • You answered a question which I had posted but not received an answer to. It is possible for the T to move (which mine does) but the spool to not move! I have suspicioned this may be happening.

    I know the fluid has not been changed for at least 20 years in this tractor. It's obviously time! I've read instructions to use kerosene to clean it. Have no idea where I would get kerosene any longer. Will diesel fuel work? If not, what would you suggest?

    Another question. Do you run it with the cleaner in it or just flush through?

    Thanks,

    Jack

    JMOR    Posted 10-01-2018 at 19:46:40 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Different people/different opinions. I had mine well opened up & used hands to scoop out the heavier large 'poop' deposits! Then repeatedly flushed a couple of gallons of diesel throughout using a pump up garden sprayer, catching, straining and re-spraying several times. Some say mix 3-4 gallons diesel with gallon of hyd oil and operate for some minutes. I wouldn't do that for more than perhaps 15 minutes, since diesel isn't much of a lubricant. You can likely move the spool if stuck by disconnecting the Tee from yoke and using hand to try to move it, as now you have more 'stroke' room the with the yoke connected.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-01-2018 at 19:54:21 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Good information! Have to make a town run tomorrow so will pick up some diesel. How do I determine if that spool is actually stuck?

    JMOR    Posted 10-01-2018 at 19:58:31 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Once disconnected from Tee, it will be free to be removed if not stuck.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 10-03-2018 at 18:12:19 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • Got all three sumps drained but I see no way I'm going to get my hands down in there to work. Have both inspection plates off and there is more room on the left than on the right. Cut a piece as Kevin suggested to wedge the forks apart. Still don't know how it is to get in place!

    Tonight I have it soaking with Diesel in it. The control valve seemed to move easier after I put the diesel in. Is there any reason to hope the lift will raise on Diesel?

    Jack

    JMOR    Posted 10-03-2018 at 23:15:14 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Still Need Help! 2N Hydraulics
  • well, a 'hope' at least. You will have more room if you remove the 4 bolts & the PTO shaft.

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