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Subject: Generator parts for early 9N?

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JP    Posted 11-26-2018 at 13:46:03 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I have an early 1939 9N with the 2 wire 2 brush generator which used a voltage regulator, before they switched to the cut out. The generator needs brushes, brush springs, bearing, and bushing, plus one of the coils is showing continuity with the generator housing so will need to be insulated. I have not been able to find parts that say they fit this unit, only the newer one and three wire generators. Are parts available for this generator? Would I just be better off switching to the more common one wire generator and getting a cut out? Or the three wire 8N unit?

    Thanks for any help.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-26-2018 at 16:21:55 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • JP-
    I have some new parts for the early 9N generator. You can also go with the later 2N-1000 unit and a cutout circuit to replace them with too, no need to jump into a 12V switch job if you want to keep it 6V like original. I have a newly rebuilt unit for sale -see LINK. It is the 1-Wire/3-Brush type used after the initial 2-Wire/2-Brush unit. The 9N-C and the 2N generators had a higher output -11.5 AMPS than the earlier 7 amp A and B models. If you want to change, I can make you a deal on your OEM gen and VR. I sent you an email.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 11-26-2018 at 23:25:27 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Doing some more research I noticed my generator has a different mounting bracket than what I've seen on the Ford tractors. Instead of a sort of teardrop shaped front mount mine has a slotted fork sort of thing, which looks like what was used on Ford flathead motors of similar vintage. I'll post a pic tomorrow.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-27-2018 at 06:58:32 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • JP-
    Yes, it sounds like you have an early V8 generator forked bracket. A few years ago I wrote a document on all the early Ford tractor generators - see LINK below -it's in our HOW-TO's forum, under ELECTRICAL. This may help you further ID your generator. Finding an OEM front plate, p/n 9N-10138-A would be just as hard as trying to locate a complete unit. Ditto for some of the other parts internally as well. The brushes are unique to the "A" unit, p/n 9N-100069-A, fixed. I recently came across several of these FORD OEM brushes so I can help you out with set of them. Email me with your address and will send them out to you. The 9N-10000-A and 9N-10000-B generators, the first early small barrel units, used the same brush springs, p/n 9N-10057 up until 1941, when the 9N-10000-C unit was released. Unfortunately most all parts for the 9N-A unit and the 9N-B unit as well are unique to those units and do not interchange.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 11-27-2018 at 09:35:54 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I learned all about the 9N generators from your document, most people I've spoken to had no idea about the differences with the early 9N tractors, including Steiner Tractor. I sent them a link to your document to show them that the early ones did have a regulator not a cutout. What's the best way to get the pulley off the armature, pipe wrench on both?

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-27-2018 at 11:23:12 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I know STEINERs well, live about 35 miles east of them, and stop in often. They have been around for decades, first as Grand Blanc Tractor Sales. They use to cast their own parts like manifolds. Then the EPA made it so waste disposal put most US foundries out of business. Here is a picture of my 9N with a STEINER exhaust manifold on it.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 11-27-2018 at 11:16:22 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Got the pulley off with a chain wrench on the pulley and a pipe wrench on the armature, wasn't on as tightly as I expected. The bearing is 1 9/16 OD 11/16 ID and says
    GREEN 7-RA-10094.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-27-2018 at 15:38:27 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • The bearing is one part still available, p/n 9N-10094, and yes, it is METRIC. The OD is 35mm and the ID is 15mm. All FORD generators used the 15mm armature and bearing up to the later 8N model, then went to the 17mm armature and bearing. The early 9N-10000-A generator pulley is .5905" (15mm) smooth bored with a 1/8" keyway broached thru. the 9N-10000-B generator changed to a .5905"-20 threaded ID on the pulley secured with a nut and lockwasher. Ba$turd sizes were used: .59" equals 15mm but TPI is 20. A 1.25mm thread pitch would be real close to 20 TPI but there is no such thing in the fastener world. TPI = 1 20 = .050"; 1.25mm X .03937 (1mm) = .0492". Ford stamped the armature with the script logo and a date code too. If really worn down you may not see it any more.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 11-27-2018 at 15:48:39 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • "then went to the 17mm armature and bearing."

    This is definitely a newer 17mm armature. I can see "Ford B-5" stamped on the armature, does that mean 1945?

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-10-2018 at 12:52:41 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Looking at your pictures, your is an earlier car generator, 81A-10000-D. It did indeed use the 17mm armature as the parts diagram shows armature nut as p/n 351124-S; .6693"-20 from my 28-38 Chassis Parts information. Thus a "B-5" date code would be a 1935 part.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 12-13-2018 at 12:50:27 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Yes I sort of figured out the same by checking some parts measurements and found all the correct parts that I needed. Thanks again for all the help and pointing me in the right direction. I should have it all back together again today.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-27-2018 at 16:21:09 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I posted before I read your other reply about 17mm. B-5 would indicate FEB 1955. The 17mm (.6693")armature and bearings were not introduced until the bigger 8N-10000-B 20 AMP generator was released. All subsequent generators after then used the larger size. The 17mm bearing is p/n 8BA-10094 and can be found at Dennis Carpenter and JUST8Ns. The bronze bushing can be found at OILITE.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-28-2018 at 05:31:39 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • You may have a later tractor generator. Can you send me some pictures?

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 11-28-2018 at 08:52:41 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I posted a pic on another forum, here's the link:
    https://www.mytractorforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2349223&d=1543412685
    If other pics from different angles would help let me know.

    JP    Posted 11-28-2018 at 14:53:22 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Here it is disassembled

    https://www.mytractorforum.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=2349281&d=1543434615

    JP    Posted 12-01-2018 at 12:25:12 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • The pole shoes had some rust so I cleaned them up with a wire wheel and Vapo-rust. They looked to have some sort of thin black coating to prevent rust, can I just spray a thin layer of electrical varnish on them? It's the same stuff used on the coils before wrapping them. Plan to wrap them with Scotch 27 reinforced fiber tape.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 11-27-2018 at 14:22:38 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • That would be a very odd size. What did you use to measure the bearing and are you sure the dimensions are not metric?

    TOH

    JP    Posted 11-27-2018 at 15:21:22 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Yes it did seem odd, I held it up to a measuring tape. I'm thinking it's probably a 5/8 shaft so should be a 5/8 bearing ID. I just checked it with dial calipers I get .667, 5/8 would be .625, 11/16 would be .6875. Metric doesn't seem right since .667 would be 16.94mm, but I guess that's pretty close to 17mm. Would Ford have used a metric shaft back then? I do remember something about metric in Tim's article, let me check. OK looking at Tim's generator article again he did say that they used metric bearings, which explains why I was getting weird numbers. Just used my digital calipers set to metric and it's 17mm ID 40mm OD 12mm thick. The bushing is 17mm ID 20mm OD 20mm long.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 11-27-2018 at 16:46:55 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Yes, Ford would have and did use metric shafts and in this case I suspect you will find the thread is Imperial ;-)

    What you have there is a standard 6203 ball bearing - cheap and plentiful. The radial ball bearing is a European invention (France???) and the vast majority of them are made in metric sizes. You will find metric ball bearings were used in many places on the N-series.

    TOH

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-26-2018 at 16:09:15 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I have new brushes and can rebuild the generator -my email is open.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Matt (MN)    Posted 11-26-2018 at 15:23:43 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • It sounds like you have a very valuable 9N generator and possibly a very valuable voltage regulator. Whatever you do, please don't throw it away. If a restoration is required and costs more than you want to spend, there is a market for it as is.

    JP    Posted 11-26-2018 at 19:47:44 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Definitely wasn't going to toss it, since I haven't been able to find another like it I figured it was worth something to someone. The regulator is a new one I just bought from Steiner Tractor so it's not anything special. I don't think the one it replaced was original either and it was missing the cover and rather rusty.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 11-26-2018 at 14:27:24 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • Sounds like a candidate for a trip to a rebuild shop or a 12V conversion. I 'll bet the latter is the least expensive....

    TOH

    JP    Posted 11-26-2018 at 14:31:54 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I'd do the rebuild myself if I can find the parts. Since I'd need a new battery for a 12V conversion and I just bought a new 6V battery I think the 12V conversion would be more expensive. Aren't the kits around $100?

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-27-2018 at 07:17:31 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I'd hold off on a 12V switch over job for now; would be a last resort in my opinion. It's your call, so if you want to keep it OEM 6V/POS GRN, there are alternatives. How often do you use the tractor? If it is indeed an early 1939 model, are you going restore it? Consider the above post of the '39 9N that sold at auction for over $30K recently. Some cringe at that price but IMHO, a nicely restored early 9N is well worth that kind of $$$ especially if it is 99.99% original like this one was. Many have no clue what all goes into an original restoration. Locating the OEM parts is only part of the equation. Most all of the so-called early 9N's that have sold at auctions in the past ten years have all been partially incorrect, some even having 12V conversions on them.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 11-27-2018 at 08:30:27 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • It's not original, I changed out the front saddle for an 8N unit years ago so I could mount a Dearborn Loader, also the hubs and rims are 8N. It could be changed back of course if someone wanted to do a restoration. I just want to get it running reliably for the least money, get some work out of it, then sell it. Has a Sherman Power Digger backhoe on it as well. I think I found some parts for the flathead generators and I should be able to rebuild this generator for less than $30.
    https://www.ebay.com/itm/253547535900
    https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_v8_ford_truck/electrical/engine-compartment/generators.html

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-27-2018 at 09:00:09 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • So, the whole generator is not the early small barrel 2-brush/2-wire B Circuit design unit with the rectangular VR? If either or both are original, my offer stands to buy them.

    FORD-FERGUSON EARLY 9N VOLTAGE REGULATOR -USED ONLY WITH THE 9N-10000-A GENERATOR:

    NOTE: VR mounts to a the lower steering housing via two cast bosses, drilled and tapped.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 11-27-2018 at 09:47:57 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • The Voltage reg is a new unit from Steiner, not original, nor was the one it replaced.
    This is basically what the generator looks like
    https://www.macsautoparts.com/early_v8_ford_truck/generator-2-brush-with-single-pulley-85-hp-ford-6-volt-363812.html

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-27-2018 at 11:06:55 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • By the pictures you sent me, you do not have an original 9N generator and Voltage Regulator. The genny is an early V8 unit. STEINER TRACTOR never sold a repop early 9N-10505-A Voltage Regulator. What you have is the 8N-10505-B unit that is now sold by everyone. It looks like this -

    8N-10505-B VR's:

    The 9N-10000-A genny was a 'B'-Circuit design. The 9N-10000-B genny, 1-wire/3-Brush, 'A' -circuit design unit and then used the roundcan cutout and all 9Ns and 2Ns subsequently after used it as well. The N generators were then 1-Wire/3-Brush A-Circuit units til the 8N, then they used a voltage regulator with 3-wire/3-brush gennys. The NAA Tractor went back to a B-Circuit unit. That is why I said you can easily replace your genny with a 9N-10000-C unit or the 2N-10000 unit and install the cutout and all will be right with the world if you want to keep it 6V. A 12V switch over will cost on average $200 for the alternator kit and about $125 for a decent 12V battery. To me either way the costs will be about the same.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JP    Posted 11-27-2018 at 11:23:33 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • If I can find the springs and brushes I'll just rebuild this generator. This is the regulator I got from Steiner, your document helped me realize it should work with my generator. https://www.steinertractor.com/ABC074-6-Volt-Voltage-Regulator

    R Geiger    Posted 11-26-2018 at 14:41:22 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I would find a local mom and pop generator repair shop, they will sell you parts if they can be had.
    I went to 12 volts on both of my 8ns when the batteries needed replacing. Got tired of fighting charging problems.
    Life is with 12 volts.

    JP    Posted 11-26-2018 at 15:19:07 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • What kit did you use for your conversion? What was included and did you need anything else other than a new battery? I was concerned about the starter, when I got the tractor about 25 years ago it had a 12V battery and I guess a coil, but nothing else, I guess he just charged the battery with a charger. The ring gear was pretty chewed up and I had to replace it, I wondered if the 12V was spinning the starter too fast but it could have just been the original ring gear and was worn out after 50+ years of use.

    R Geiger    Posted 11-26-2018 at 18:15:09 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Generator parts for early 9N?
  • I used the i wire kit from the other 8n place, came with the mounting bracket and I ordered a new wiring harness but I could have done it without that.came with resistor to use with 6 volt round can coil. both of mine were side mount distributors. different kit for front mount dist. that kit comes with a 12 volt coil.
    I have not had any trouble with the starter or ring gears, one ring gear and starter bendix is only 6 years old, the other one is older by years.

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