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Subject: Buford

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Jim    Posted 11-27-2018 at 21:51:47 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Buford
  • what chemical do you guys use prior to attempting to remove rust? thanks

    Bruce(OR)    Posted 11-30-2018 at 12:18:45 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Electrolysis with washing powder will remove rust.
    Electrolysis with lye will remove rust and grease.
    I am using a 2/40/200 battery charger. Set on the 40 anp scale and try to keep it around 25 amps positioning the anodes at variable distance.
    I currently have a 50 gallon plastic barrel set up with lye.
    I have a 250 gallon water tank with metal sides that I should set up with washing powder for larger items. Wheels come into mind.
    Washing powder, I believe, is a basis for fertilizer. Spilling that in the yard is not a big mess as lye.
    I have had a lye spill. Not pretty.
    Muriatic acid works well and can be neutralized with baking soda. Muriatic acid is also prone to flash rust when rinsing off the item.
    I have a 5 gallon bucket of that around here also. . .
    Phospho will convert rust to a paintable surface. If the rust is raised up, it needs to be removed somehow prior to painting.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-29-2018 at 06:46:40 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • There are two kinds of 'rust', red oxide, the bad stuff, and black oxide, the good stuff. As iron reacts to oxygen and water, it breaks down sort of back to its natural element state. Black oxide transforms the process, neutralizes it so it no longer will break down. The Black Oxide process is used on gages and tooling in industry to prevent oxidation, or rusting. There are a few commercial products you can use on your parts and tools after you have removed all the old rust, crud, and paint and before you paint over with a new finish if you want to preserve them for a long time. I use a product made by PERMATEX on all my parts after I clean them and before I paint them. Originally their product was called EXTEND, but since have just renamed it RUST TREATMENT. EASTWOOD PRODUCTS also makes a good product too. You apply it in three steps, about 2-3 minutes apart. It will dry to a black finish and let set for 24 hours before painting.


    Tim Daley(MI)

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 11-29-2018 at 08:08:51 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Spraying the rust with Phosphoric Acid will also convert it to Black Oxide. Cheapest Phosphoric Acid I've found is Klean-Strip Phosphoric Prep and Etch.

    Rustoleum also makes a Rust Converter which does the same thing.

    steveVa    Posted 11-28-2018 at 13:32:20 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Naval Jelly.

    Takes a few days before you can paint it. Turns rust bkack.

    Farmer Dan    Posted 11-28-2018 at 11:59:21 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • I use either my small sandblaster or white vinegar.

    Peter    Posted 11-28-2018 at 19:24:25 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Thar stuff rocks, works well and the rust will not come back. I think this is the best option.

    TOny C    Posted 11-28-2018 at 11:17:12 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Hydrochloric acid AKA Muriatic acid (concrete cleaner) When finished dump a box or two of baking soda in the bucket to neutralize the acid when you get rid of it. Works well for fuel tanks.

    If you use vinegar get the weed killer variety 20% not the supermarket 5% variety. Garden supply houses usually have it. It is strong and will clear your nostrils.

    Electrolysis has worked the best for me. Arm And Hammer Super washing SODA, not powder. I use a couple of handfuls to a couple of gallons. Mix the soda into solution first. THe soda dissolves faster if warm water is used. It's cheap and Walmart has it. THe sacrificial piece is the anode which is positive. Cathode, the negative is the crusty piece you are trying to clean. Use a low amp battery charger 3 to 6 amp. I've left it hooked up overnight with no ill effects. THe part will have to be buffed to get the black residue off when finished.

    STRUCTURE. HYDROGEN GAS IS PRODUCED.......A LOT.......H is extremely

    Think the Hindenburg. It shouldn't have to be stated but don't have the charger plugged in when the leads are hooked to the pieces and make sure they are secure on the pieces. Unplug the charger before you remove either lead. If you have ever seen or had a battery explode you will get an idea of just how explosive Hydrogen is, even in small amounts.

    Jim    Posted 11-28-2018 at 13:01:54 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Thanks Tony. Sounds potentially dangerous but effective.

    TOny C    Posted 11-28-2018 at 14:20:18 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Not if you are careful using electrolysis and muriatic acid. Water and washing powder are pretty benign. Same for a battery charger. The same risk as charging a vented battery at a high rate or with the caps off in a confined area where sparks or open flames are present. e.g. sparking charger clamps, pilot lights, grinding sparks, use of oxy/acetylene cutting torch.

    Muriatic acid is a common cleaner used on concrete but care does have to be taken handling it. Rubber gloves, respirator, knowing how to dilute and neutralize it.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 11-28-2018 at 08:34:30 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • It depends on how big the part is, and the time frame in which it will be needed. Electrolysis seems to be a popular method. I've always used plain white vinegar in a can or pan with the small parts soaking for several weeks at least. Vinegar will remove rust, crud and paint when left to work -it won't do anything in just a few hours or days even. Small parts can be put in a plastic coffee can, covered in vinegar, then the lid replaced as the stuff will evaporate fast otherwise especially in hot weather. A larger container like a plastic dishpan will work for slightly large parts like tools, but be sure to also cover. For real big parts, a small kiddie swimming pool will work. Use a plastic container with vinegar so it doesn't have to compete with the metal like a tin coffee can, if you still have any. Vinegar is about $5 per gallon so consider costs on bigger parts. Electrolysis is the way to go on those. Finding a place that will sell lye can be a hassle too. I've used old mower blades for conductors in my tank. We have methods in or HOW-TO's forum to help you decide as well. here is the one for electrolysis...

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Jim    Posted 11-28-2018 at 08:49:53 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Wow, thanks Tim. Very interesting subject.

    Dave H    Posted 11-28-2018 at 08:16:21 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • i use the same as K, however it takes way more than a couple of beers, i mean hours for me.

    Maybe I am running less amperage?

    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 11-28-2018 at 15:21:39 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • I have an old transformer type 10/2 battery charger that makes clean DC power. I always run it on the 2 amp setting for electrolysis. Actual amps flowing depends on how much metal is in the tank. Small parts flow less than 2 amps. I've seen close to 10 amps with something like an oil pan. Lots of surface area can overload the charger, so I check on it to make sure. All that is needed for the process to work is current flow. More amps just wastes energy and produces more of those flammable bubbles.

    Really rusty stuff might be left cooking overnight. Most things have dropped most of the paint and turned rust black in a couple of hours.

    Many newer battery chargers do not make clean DC. Any AC component that goes into the tank slows the process. For those types of chargers hook them to a battery like you normally would to charge it, then hook the battery to the tank.

    The two big positives with this process is no toxic waste to clean up and it is nearly effortless. A stiff bristle or wire brush can be used to help knock loosened paint off when I'm in a big hurry.

    Tony C    Posted 11-28-2018 at 16:24:50 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Hi Kevin,

    Thanks for validating the method. BIggest cost is the Washing soda. Besides you can use the remainder of the washing soda to wash your bibs.


    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 11-28-2018 at 16:42:46 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Some Photos:
    My tank has been sitting in this same spot behind my shed with the same washing soda mix for about 10 years now. In all those years the only expense has been for electricity. Top off water occasionally, keep it covered so small critters don't drown in there, and replace the sacrificial metal once in a while. My sacrificial metal is free. I use old welded wire fencing. There are still several rolls of it to go thru before I have to worry about buying any. The washing soda concentration is just enough to keep it from freezing solid. It does sometimes get a layer of ice on top. Knock a hole, put parts in, hook up charger, and it makes enough heat to melt the rest of the ice.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 11-28-2018 at 16:41:06 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • If you have clothing which is particulary soiled, grease or what ever, soaking in that washing soda will generally clean them. Takes some time.

    I've never had electrolysis work as fast as some of these fellows are saying. I let my set for days sometimes. I've used both the washing soda and lye.

    Scotch Brite Scouring Pads do a pretty good job of removing the black residue.

    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 11-28-2018 at 17:01:24 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • The photo above shows a flathead V8 oil pan after about 3 hours. It's tied to a stick of wood to hold it off the sacrificial basket. This photo was just prior to flipping it over to do the other end.

    The black powdery stuff is just a mixture of loose iron metal and iron oxides. It easily washes right off before wiping the part down with rubbing alcohol and shooting primer.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 11-28-2018 at 17:57:05 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • May I go off subject?

    Believe you are in antique cars. Is there any market for a generator off of either a 1941 Mercury or possible a 1946 Ford? Stick a meter on it and spin it and the meter kicks. As far as I've tested it. Answer by email if you prefer.


    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 11-28-2018 at 20:55:22 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • There is always a market for original parts of any king for most vintage cars. Restorations get down to every nut bolt and screw. Judges at car shows use a point system to measure originality. A friend was once dinged on originality because the car was too perfect. Things like the frame and firewall were too smooth to be the way it originally done by the factory.

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 11-28-2018 at 23:14:39 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Thanks,

    I'll have to get it down and recheck it. Maybe even give it a paint job.


    Jack - Iowa    Posted 11-28-2018 at 17:21:10 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • I've never had that fast success! However, I had missed your post with the picture and may see why! I really like the idea of welded woven wire and have some at the farm. Suspect I've never had enough sacrificial iron. My process works good, just slow. I find lye works best if paint is involved, otherwise the soda works just as well.


    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 11-28-2018 at 08:06:00 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Beer for me

    1 - Hang parts in electrolysis tank.
    2 - Hook up charger and turn on.
    3 - Go do something else for a couple of hours.

    Jim    Posted 11-28-2018 at 08:36:10 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Buford
  • Thanks Kevin. I am grateful for all the good tips I am getting.

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