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Subject: Oil tested after 10 years use.

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Larry Holbrook    Posted 12-10-2018 at 11:31:47 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • I'd never do this but sure is amazing how good the oil is now days. I've read where people change it way to often. Good article.

    Steve Dabrowski    Posted 12-11-2018 at 15:29:42 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • When I was in the navy 50 years ago we did not change oil-in fact we were taught in A school that oil never wore out it just got dirty. On board our boat all lube oil was cleaned using centrifuges made by DeLaval-the oil was pumped upward through the unit and the contaminates thrown off at high RPM onto a series of discs like stacked records. The oil exited at the top and was returned clean to the lube oil tank. This primarily served our four GMC 16 cylinder diesels in the forward and after engine rooms (two in each). It was always a dirty job cleaning the discs afterward.

    I believe it was the same in the surface navy, except for small boats.

    K.LaRue-VA    Posted 12-10-2018 at 21:51:03 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • The only part that seemed right to me was the editor's note at the bottom, "We don't recommend using 10-year-old motor oil".

    Bruce(OR)    Posted 12-10-2018 at 16:59:38 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Fake news with a twist.
    10 year old motor oil and the guy is talking about a lawn mower. The pic shows a automobile.
    I remember a few years ago, working in an auto repair/sales lot. The owner went to an auction and picked up a car about 3 years of age and 56K miles on the odo.
    The oil pan was in the trunk. It was full of oil congealed in place and had would not come out of the oil pan when the oil pan was held upside down. Two, tree minutes later and it's still hanging. No drips. No, you don't need to change oil. It's fun to see when it turns into glop and wipes out your engine.
    POOF!
    Save that $30. Spend $30,000 on a new buggy instead.

    Larry Holbrook    Posted 12-11-2018 at 07:19:38 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Yes I agree. I would never not change my oil. I do think modern oil is very good stuff and lasts much longer than it used to. Engines run cleaner also and it is not as contaminated. I changed my 3000's oil after a year and it had only 14 hours. I'm sure I wouldn't have need to change it but I did.

    Also that article says the engine was a Honda. I have a 92 Honda TRX 300 4X4. My son road it very hard for years. It still runs like a top and uses no oil. I change it twice a year and it gets lots of use.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-10-2018 at 12:43:35 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Oil doesn't break down. You can use it over and over if you can filter out the impurities. An old timer electrician once told me this and said if you take a length of cotton rope like a clothesline and set it in a can of dirty/used oil then droop it down into another container, it will slowly filter the oil out and fill up the lower container with clean oil. Its viscosity doesn't deteriorate. He said a lot of people did this but is a long time-consuming process.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Mower    Posted 12-11-2018 at 20:40:07 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • "Oil doesn't break down"
    That is not only not true, it's complete, incompetent nonsense.

    There are some fleet outfits that never actually change the oil, but both the base stock and additive pack are replenished with oil added during filter changes and through top-offs due to normal consumption. However, without some extensive oil analysis and planning, it isn't something that is normally done.

    I would also suggest that you stop parroting "old timer electricians" who may know wiring and switches, but don't know much about modern engine oil.

    Tony C    Posted 12-10-2018 at 20:29:46 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Correct, Tim. THe additive package in oil breaks down not the oil itself. As oil becomes contaminated the detergent and corrosion inhibitors are unable to keep contaminants in suspension. The older paraffin based oils left thick deposits in the engine as the oil degraded, partly as a result of open breathers and incomplete combustion of gasoline. Modern cars with closed systems and computer controlled fuel delivery systems don't have that problem.They burn a lot cleaner and oils are exponentially better than lubricants of twenty years ago.

    I sampled the oil a couple of times a year in my truck engines. Same for any used cars I bought. Sixteen bucks per sample which gives the PPM of all the metallic elements in the oil and and the OMG limits, along with any evidence of anti-freeze intrusion. NAPA does sampling as does CAT

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-10-2018 at 14:10:03 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Total rubbish. We have been through this before and the nature of the chemical and molecular changes that engine oil undergoes inside an engine has been thoroughly and painstakingly studied and documented.

    The base oil that is the foundational component of an engine oil is a carefully engineered mix of hydrocarbon molecules. The molecules in that mix can and do get aaltered when subject to heat and stress inside an engine. That means the carefully engineered physical makeup of the base oil is changed and the viscosity changes with them. In general engine oils initially start to shear down to a lower viscosity as the longer chain molecules are destroyed and the viscosity drops below the original SAE grade. Then over time oxidation causes polymerization of the molecules and the oil begins to thicken. If operated long enough it will become too viscous to measure. Simply put the base oil molecules first get shredded and then cooked into mush.

    Used engine oil can be recycled but it takes a lot more than filters. It is reprocessed into a fresh new base oil via the same distillation / de-waxing / molecular cracking chemical processes that were used to refine the original crude oil. The amount of base lubricating oil that can be recovered from "good used" engine oil is about 60% by volume. The molecular fraction lost has been altered to the point it is no longer suitable for use as a lubricating oil.

    TOH

    Tony C    Posted 12-11-2018 at 20:12:59 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • True that chemical changes and contamination are destructive to gasoline powered engines' oils. Oils can be reclaimed by centrifuging, using chemical cleaners and addition of new additive packages.

    A single (insignificant N sample size) example from a small air cooled under stressed engine isn't a definitive test.
    Coolant contamination is another factor affecting lubricant performance. Quality of the oil, the efficiency and maintenance of the filtering system play a large part of the longevity of engine oils.

    Modern truck engine manufacturers have introduced extended oil drain programs. Detroit Diesel has extended their recommended drain intervals to 75,000 miles, Navistar to 60,000 (IIRC) Cummins to 50,000. Oil sampling is recommended at each filter change, typically 7500 to 10,000 miles. Big saving in operating costs. 12 gallons of oil @ $12 to $20 a gallon plus filters at $16-$20 per, recycling fees, along with shop and down time.

    I assume the engine manufacturers have worked closely with the oil companies in the implementation of those increases.

    I used extended oil drain intervals in my CAT powered equipment and got extremely long life from them in spite of being in service before I obtained the equipment and used in start stop operations. I doubled the number of the filters originally installed, sampled the oils at the time of filter(s) change and followed CATS' recommendations for TBO based on the PPM of metallic elements in the oil. I had no oil related problems and got extremely long life from the engines I operated. Initially Cummins then CAT for the majority for the years I owned class eight trucks. With engine overhauls running $12 to $15K and reman factory engines in excess of $25K (2006 prices, the year I retired) I wasn't going to take any chances.

    Any IC engine burning dinosaur fuel is going to contaminate oil, period. DIesel engines much more so than spark engines. LNG and propane fueled engines don't contaminate the oil installed, unless coolant intrudes or dirt is ingested through the induction system. COmpressed gas fueled fork lifts and mining equipment run thousands of hours between changes. The oil and spark plugs look like new when removed.

    I still do oil sampling every other oil change on my cars. So.....yes modern oils retain their lubricating ability for a long time but it is finite.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-12-2018 at 07:25:45 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Quit changing the topic. We are not talking about OCI or the benfits of used oil anlaysis in choosing a drain interval. We are talking about the myth previously stated here that "engine oil never wears out" which is patently false.

    Used engine oil can be reclaimed but the process is not as simple as particulate filtering whether by centrifuge or media and additive replenishment. It is accomplished by using the waste oil as feed stock for a refining process very much like the processes used to produce base lube oil from crude or synthetic feed stocks. As I said earlier this process yields roughly 60% by volume of newly refined base oil from the waste oil feed stocks.

    TOH

    Used motor oil re-refining

    See also: Motor oil: Re-refined motor oil

    Used oil re-refining is the process of restoring used oil to new oil by removing chemical impurities, heavy metals and dirt.[2] Used industrial and automotive oil is recycled at re-refineries. The used oil is first tested to determine suitability for re-refining, after which it is dehydrated and the water distillate is treated before being released into the environment. Dehydrating also removes the residual light fuel that can be used to power the refinery, and additionally captures ethylene glycol for re-use in recycled antifreeze.

    Next, industrial fuel is separated out of the used oil then vacuum distillation removes the lube cut (that is, the fraction suitable for reuse as lubricating oil) leaving a heavy oil that contains the used oil's additives and other by-products such as asphalt extender. The lube cut next undergoes hydro treating, or catalytic hydrogenation to remove residual polymers and other chemical compounds, and saturate carbon chains with hydrogen for greater stability.

    Final oil separation, or fractionating, separates the oil into three different oil grades: Light viscosity lubricants suitable for general lubricant applications, low viscosity lubricants for automotive and industrial applications, and high viscosity lubricants for heavy-duty applications. The oil that is produced in this step is referred to as re-refined base oil (RRBL).

    The final step is blending additives into these three grades of oil products to produce final products with the right detergent and anti-friction qualities. Then each product is tested again for quality and purity before being released for sale to the public.[6][7][8]

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-11-2018 at 05:26:42 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Some of what you say may be true but the cotton line filter method does work. I tried it myself back in the 70's when he told me that as I was skeptical myself. Like I said it is very s-l-o-w and so the yield after 60 days of setting was maybe a 1/2 cup and the oil was no longer dark and dirty.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Ultradog MN    Posted 12-11-2018 at 05:53:50 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Tim,
    What I got out of TOH's post was it is not so much the impurities in the oil that are cause for concern. Yes, your rope trick would likely filter a lot of impurities out. But it is the breakdown of the additives in the oil and even the chemical properties of the oil itself that makes the oil less effective.
    I watch for a sale on 15W40 D rated Rotella and pick up a jug then. Second guessing the pros and trying to save a couple $ on "iffy" oil just seems penny wise and pound foolish to me.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-11-2018 at 07:24:34 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • That is exactly what I am saying. Engine oil is a carefully engineered high performance man made material. Impurities introduced by operation inside an engine are a major concern and they can be be removed by filtration. Chemical depletion of the additives that are crucial elements of engine oil performance can be monitored by used oil analysis and added to extend service life - a practice employed by many large fleet owners. But the real nail in engine oil's coffin is the breakdown of the molecular structure of the hydrocarbon chains that comprise the base oil.

    Remember - a base oil is produced from crude or synthetic feed stock by carefully controlled thermal, physical, and chemical processing which alters it's molecular structure and produces a finished lubricating oil with very carefully controlled physical properties. After blending with additives it is placed inside an operating engine that subjects it to additional thermal, physical, and chemical processing which further alters it's molecular structure. That results in different less desirable physical properties and degrades it's performance as a lubricant. The life cycle chemistry of lubricating oils has been exhaustively studied and documented. Here is a "light" read on the chemistry of base oil breakdown:

    Engine Oil Breakdown

    Most people are not going to wade through that article so here is a short quote summarizing one of the primary processes that kill engine oil.

    Oil oxidation is no different than other commonly encountered oxidation reaction, such as rusting. Just like the effects rusting and other corrosive processes have on metal substrates, oil oxidations results in a catastrophic and permanent chemical change to the base oil molecules.

    In the case of oil oxidation, the reaction results in the sequential addition of oxygen to the base oil molecules, to form a number of different chemicals species, including aldehydes, ketones, hydroperoxides and carboxylic acids (Figure 2).

    So yes Virginia - your engine oil does in fact "wear out" and it happens relatively quickly. Hardly surprising since AFAIK every material in the universe wears in one way or another.

    TOH

    JMOR    Posted 12-12-2018 at 12:01:48 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • No doubt a huge scam by BOG OIL and evil capitalist corporations, but they got me, as my equipment cost, especially cost of replacement & it's importance to me makes me a slave to regular (as I try) oil/filter changes. So, just call me a sucker?
    :^)

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-12-2018 at 12:24:26 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • That doesn't make you a sucker - just a cautious man. For most people the cost savings that can be realized by extended OCI's is really quite small - and that presumes you don't overshoot and cost yourself money with too long an interval.

    As I said above, my issue in this thread is not OCI. It is the baseless notion that "oil" is some sort of phantasmagorical material that is immune to "wear" and lasts forever. TTBOMK those materials are as rare as pink unicorns....

    Just continue to be a good shepherd of Mother Earth and return your waste oil for recycling ;-)

    TOH

    John in Mich    Posted 12-10-2018 at 19:21:28 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil tested after 10 years use.
  • Same basically true for transmission fluid (not oil). Trans FLUID has many additives in it to meet the high lubrication-hydraulic pressures-heat disapation of an automatic transmission.
    That said, in the late -40s and early 1950's most oil used was non-detergent. A neighbor was selling a product called Sci-en-tif-ic (I think that is the correct spelling) Anyway, he would drain the oil from his 1947 Ford V-8, pull the filter, wash the filter (I don't know what with). put the oil back into the engine and add the product he was selling which also made up for any loss of oil in the process. I don't know how effective it was but he had over 200,000 miles on the car.

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