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Subject: Hydraulic Fluid Source

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Richard    Posted 02-24-2019 at 12:55:43 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • Looking for a source of Ford M-4864-D hydraulic fluid (or equivalent product) for a Model 19-97 Industrial Loader, 1951 vintage.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 02-25-2019 at 06:59:45 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • NO LONGER SERVICED -meaning the part or product is no longer made, not even CNH supplies it anymore as well as the MC-134D oil. BUT, you can probably use the standard SAE-80/90 API GL-1 stuff sold at NAPA and same stuff at TSC just a little cheaper. There are also numerous old posts in the archives here for further research.

    NAPA SAE 90 API GL-1 GEAR OIL & TSC EQUIVALENT:

    Tim Daley(MI)

    TheOldHokie    Posted 02-24-2019 at 16:59:59 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • That is a 60+ year old Ford specification with no known (to me) documentation of its properties. At best we know from usage guidelines it had a lower viscosity than SAE 80 gear oil. I suggest you go get a few gallons of quality AW-46 hydraulic oil - it should perform better than the M-4864D oil ever did. If you are going to be using the loader in temperatures approaching 0F you might consider going one grade lighter - AW-32. A good alternative for year round use woyl be a modern Universal Tractor Transmssion fluid which can also be used in the transmission and final drive of older Ford tractors. All of those oils are available at just about every auto and tractor parts supply house.

    TOH

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 02-25-2019 at 07:31:52 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • I know I've seen the M-4864-D spec somewhere but the 600/800 Operator's Manual lists it as "Mild Extreme Pressure Lubricant SAE 80" for both summer and winter. In the oil story by Llamas, he says the M-4864-D spec is the equivalent of GL-3 spec'd oil, which, I think, just means has more sulphur and phosphorous properties in it. All the OEM Ford manuals state to change out oil viscosities on both engine and hydraulic oils, whenever the wind changes direction, well almost. I highly doubt very many farmers conformed to the manual specs especially in climates where it could be -10F one day and +40F the next. I use the same stuff all year on both engine and transmission and never have any problems. I always warm up at least 15 minutes anyway before using it so don't see what temp it is matters. Even when I use to park my 8N outside in subzero temps, it started and ran fine. Thinning out engine oil with mineral spirits may help some in the extreme cold, but I never did that, and I use SAE-30 detergent all year.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    TheOldHokie    Posted 02-25-2019 at 08:35:28 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • You have your part numbers confused - llamas had them right but missed the mark on their properties.

    Ford tractor oils from the 50's:

    M-4864-A - Mild EP SAE 80 gear oil
    M-4864-B - Mild EP SAE 90 gear oil
    M-4864-D - Ford loader oil - properties not specified

    Source:

    Ford Tractor and Loader Oils

    The M-4864-D oil was a loader oil and as was common in that era likely contained sulferized Sperm whale oil as an EP component. As the Ford chart shows it could be used to thin M-4864-A (SAE 80) in the hydraulics of the NAA and Hundred series in cold weather. So we can safely deduce it's viscosity was lower than SAE 80 gear oil. Exactly how much less is a harder question. Viscosity grades for gear oils are defined at 100C and modern hydraulic oils are defined at 40C so a direct comparison is difficult. But assuming a typical viscosity index of 95 for a 50's era SAE 80 gear oil (M-4864-A) we can compute an operational viscosity of roughly 70 cSt @ 40C. That corresponds to an ISO VG 68 hydraulic oil. Hence my suggestion of an ISO VG 46 oil as an equivalent for the thinner M-4864-D.

    If you can find any documentation for any of those Ford oil specifications you should publish them. I prefer hard data to speculation and I have searched long and hard. That chart is the most definitive information I have found.

    TOH

    Gaspump    Posted 02-25-2019 at 15:37:52 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • Interesting that the Llamas treatise is still kicking around the net. It was posted years ago and a few years later he himself posted a retraction to the original article. As I recall both the original treatise and it's retraction were posted on YT. I do like your efforts on clearing up lube myths and mis-information. Remember the big myth is SMO 90, not by any means the original by design Ford spec but only one of the WWII alternates when lubes of any type were almost non-existent.

    Gaspump    Posted 02-25-2019 at 15:36:11 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • Interesting that the Llamas treatise is still kicking around the net. It was posted years ago and a few years later he himself posted a retraction to the original article. As I recall both the original treatise and it's retraction were posted on YT. I do. like your efforts on clearing up lube myths and mis-information. Remember the big myth is SMO 90, not by any means the original by design Ford spec but only one of the WWII alternates when lubes of any type were almost non-existent.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 02-25-2019 at 16:33:34 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • I wasn't aware llamas retracted the article but I can imagine why. He was clearly confused about some of the data and the subtleties of the SAE and ISO viscosity grading systems.

    Despite clear and concise specifications for mild EP gear oil in the Ford N-series Owner's Manuals the SMO 90 / GL1 myth will not die.

    It's too bad Ford never provided publicly available data sheets for their lubricants. I had to call the company that made the 134D product to get even basic properties.

    TOH

    Jim    Posted 03-02-2019 at 06:57:19 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • Okay guys, I am totally confused. What is the consensus if there is such an animal as to what fluids to use in the N series tractors and the NAA as well?

    TheOldHokie    Posted 03-02-2019 at 11:36:13 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • No real consnesus - like engine oil there are some rather firmly entrenched camps.

    By far the most economical and perhaps the closest to consensus choice is a modern Universal Tractor Transmission fluid (UTTF) for year round use in N-series, NAA, Hundred, and Thousand series tractors. It is a generic equivalent for Ford M2C-134D and a multi-function, multi-grade type lubricant designed for common sump tractors. It is the type of lubricant Ford starting recommending for all of these tractors in the early sixties.

    From a technical standpoint it has the performance characteristics of both an SAE 70W80 GL-4 gear oil and a multi-grade (high VI) ISO 68 hydraulic oil. With a typical viscosity index of 130 and up it is an excellent cold weather hydraulic oil down to about 10F.

    TOH

    Richard    Posted 02-24-2019 at 17:10:18 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • Thanks for your prompt reply. The N Board is an invaluable resource, thanks to folks like yourself. This machine is out here on Cape Cod. Don't know if it ever plowed a field. Everything works on it. Serial # 282765. Also have a 1951 Huber Maintainer, with a 6 cylinder Hercules engine. Got to keep the dirt roads passable!

    Bruce(OR)    Posted 02-24-2019 at 22:35:43 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • About the closest cross over you might find is the 303 fluid. I believe the loader hydraulics being a separate circuit could be filled with most anything. "Motor oil" being the most common from what I have heard,

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 02-25-2019 at 07:02:45 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • Everything I've read about that 303 stuff has been bad news -not anything to be putting in your Ford. Just saying, lotsa archived info on it here...

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Dead Eye Dave    Posted 02-25-2019 at 07:41:57 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Hydraulic Fluid Source
  • Other than a higher price I think that 75W90 in synthetic would fill the "year round" bill. Dave

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