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Subject: hydraulic issue Ford 600

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Jon Calder    Posted 12-02-2019 at 14:44:53 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Good afternoon,
    With lots of help from this board I'm getting close to complete. Spent Sunday plowing snow (14 inches in Penobscot area of Maine) and since this is the first time I've had everything together I noticed one last (for now) issue.
    First thing I should say is my machine is a 620 so I think was shipped by Ford without hydraulics and PTO. However it has now, just mention that because someone installed afterwards.
    When I operate touch control UP to limit of travel (beyond assembly that holds the quadrant together) the implement (in this case a blade) will lift about an inch or two.
    If I reach under the seat and push the draft control lever fully up and past its detent (vertical position)
    the lift will smoothly come up to full height without a problem. The draft control lever has to be held up (past the detent/stop) for the lift to stay up (it will fairly quickly drop).
    As you can imagine its a PIA to plow very long this way.
    The oil is bright and clean looking, the machine has been kept under cover for as long as I know its history and it is in general remarkable good shape.
    I'm hoping its simply an adjustment?
    I read all the available tips in the "how to"; sent for the video DVD and will read the manual section (which I have) when I get back to it (its in eastern Maine, I'm in southern end of State working).
    After watching youtube videos I'm less intimidated but need as much guidance as I can get.
    Ordered cover plate gasket set today.
    What is opinions? Could be adjustment? Something leaking?
    Many Thanks !!

    Gaspump    Posted 12-04-2019 at 16:34:07 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Just a note on the 620. It could have come from the factory as the hydraulics and PTO could be ordered on the 620 as optional equipment

    Ultradog MN    Posted 12-02-2019 at 17:42:50 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • You are describing classic symptoms of a badly worn or worn off cam follower pin. Get your I&T FO-20 manual out and read about overhauling your lift cover including adjusting all your linkages under there, putting new seals in your lift piston and replacing the cam follower pin.

    Jon Calder    Posted 12-03-2019 at 08:22:46 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Hi, am I better off ordering cam follower pin from CNH or will the ones available from aftermarket guys be OK? I read the NAA "how to" and I think I recall it advises CNH o-rings etc.
    Is NAA essentially same as my 600?
    I usually avoid TSC and YT.
    Usually buy from DC and St. So far both of them have been good (for me anyway) and electrical from Bri.
    Here's the really stupid question- the cylinder and piston is underside of the cover..? If that's the case when you remove cover (and all) where is the hydraulic piping connection? Pump is on side of engine correct?
    I'm missing something?
    Thanks, Jon

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 12-04-2019 at 07:41:14 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • I used a standard steel dowel pin from the hardware store for my 860. Pushed it in with a C Clamp. I know others have used the same pin.

    It's not a terrible job.

    Good Luck,

    Jack

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-03-2019 at 11:13:56 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Try performing the leak test first. Most hydraulic pump parts are the same from 39-64 or 48-64 and the cam follower pin shows for 48-54. I'd call them or Derek Barkley at JUST8NS and ask if the same for the 600. P/N 374072-S at Carpenter and JUST8Ns, $10.95. I'd advise to get the top cover off and inspect everything first before buying. The 600/800 has a larger (3") piston and cylinder than the NAA. The NAA and up piston has the rubber 'O-RING' and leather backup wiper. BTW they work on the earlier 9N, 2N, and 8N cylinder as well- a much better design. I'd also advise that since you are removing the top cover anyway to plan on total system cleaning and rebuild if needed. You will want to get a new cylinder and gasket kit. Some try to hone or bore out the cylinder but I don't recommend that. It's like putting a band-aid on a 6" knife wound. You don't want to do the job a second time do you? It isn't a difficult job, just time consuming. Finally, the best investment you can make for your Ford Tractor is to get copies of the essential manuals for your shop and library. The OEM Owner/Operator manual 600-800; the Clymer/I&T FO-20 Manual; and the 53-59 MPC are important to have. Some parts are standard TISCO ones. CNH isn't my first choice and will be the most expensive of all. Them and STEINERS. Everyone else buys from TISCO or Carpenter and sells to them. Your call, your tractor, your money.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Ultradog MN    Posted 12-04-2019 at 05:16:02 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Tim,
    As you know, the N series used metal rings on the lift piston which tended to wear grooves in the cylinder bore sometimes making them unserviceable. As you stated, from the NAAs onward ford used a different lift piston with oring and leather backup. Those did not cause the grooving like the metal rings did. I have never seen one that was unserviceable. So I do not agree that he needs to replace his lift cylinder. New cylinder is very expensive - $600 - and I'll lay odds that his old one is just fine. I also would much prefer to reuse an original one - even if it had a bit of scoring or wear than buy some kind of aftermarket one from the land of almost right. His hyd pump produces around 4 GPM which is more than enough to overcome considerable leakage.
    As for the leak down test, I wouldn't bother. If I am going to go through the effort of pulling the top cover for a cam follower pin and linkage adjustment I am surely going to replace the piston seals while I'm in there. Just because. Especially when a lift cover kit, including the gasket, Orings and piston seals only costs about $10? from most suppliers.
    Jon, no dope, pucky, sealer or silicone on the top cover gasket or any hydraulic apparatus. You don't want silicone squeezing out and getting into your hyd system.
    Just put it together dry and you will be fine.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-04-2019 at 06:33:56 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Yeah, Dogman, just saying, it's your call, and I know the steel ring piston caused most of the grooving and out-of-roundness. I didn't know the 600/800 cylinder was so expensive -I didn't see one listed for Carpenter. What are they gold plated??? Carpenter Parts:

    NCA-473-A = 3" Piston Backup Washer/Wiper = $3.95
    NCA-533-A = 3" 'O-RING' = $1.95

    I think the 3" piston is p/n NCA-530-A, would need to look in MPC, approx $24.50

    Not sure if the N gasket kit fits the 600/800 cylinder and top cover - call before you buy.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Jon Calder    Posted 12-04-2019 at 08:06:06 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Thank you very much this guidance is exactly what I need...
    I "think" I'll open up top cover and see what's going on for starts. I have a top cover gasket set coming.
    Not sure about the cyl and piston? I gather from Ultradog and Tim I should put new internals in it while its out which shouldn't be much trouble. Then there's the question of the new CNH neoprene vs leather ring? Any thought on that? I think I would go with the neoprene if I had to guess.

    Next issue- taking inspection covers off the side- I understadn one of them has the PTO lever thru it. As I recall (I'm about 170 miles away from the tractor during the week) mine also has a Howard transmission shifter there too. Am I going to run into trouble with that? Does the PTO thingy just slide out or does something have to be disconn? Anybody know about Mr Howards shifter lever? I have pictures of this (cover)at home I'm pretty sure I'll see if I can post them later.
    I really appreciate this.
    There is also the usual working in a semi unheated barn in Maine in winter. Lots of fun.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-04-2019 at 13:13:33 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Jon-
    I said replace cylinder and piston and Ultradog said no need to if nor scarred/gouged up but there is no reason for it to be. I tend to now agree with Dog. You can do the leak test first. See if cylinder leaks down -that will tell you the piston is leaking -probably worn out rubber O-Ring and leather wiper. I still recommend getting a new piston, O-Ring, and leather wiper. I don't know if CNH has a 3" nylon wiper for the NCA piston. I used the nylon wiper in my 8N 10 years ago. I've used the leather washer on other guy's tractors since. How do you it tell which is better? How does one gage the difference??? I also suggest you get the parts from JUST8NS and forget about CNH. The lift cover gasket and kit - p/n NCA-500-K, $10. DC has a major Hydraulic Pump Overhaul Kit, $497.00 and a repair Kit/Piston Type for 453.95, p/n CCPN-600-AB. Pump is totally different than the N-Series so will need a 55-59 MPC. The essential manuals will guide you thru the steps so advise to first get a FO-20 manual.

    TPD

    Ultradog MN    Posted 12-04-2019 at 17:12:25 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • I would not even think about doing anything with/to the pump at this point. Just address the stated problem - he has to hold the draft lever to make the 3 point work properly. I think a new cam follower pin will fix that.
    But... Since he has to pull the cover to do that then by all means replace the piston seals and readjust linkage while you're in there.
    IF there is also problem with his pump I would address that as a seperate piece once he's done the top cover and only after he has tested the pump pressure with a gage.
    We don't even know if he has a vane pump or piston pump yet so let's not get ahead of ourselves on pumps or parts for them.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-04-2019 at 18:43:15 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Agreed. I never worked on a 600 or 800 hydraulic system but the OEM Operator's/Owner's Manual shows system is 'live' with a vane pump, gear drive, 4 to 4.8 GPM at 2000 RPM, AND 2000 LBS MAXIMUM PRESSURE. The Hy-Trol Valve is also new to me. Was this used thru '64?


    Tim Daley(MI)

    Ultradog MN    Posted 12-05-2019 at 06:02:28 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • I don't know much about the HyTrol. I'm more of a three cylinder man not four. I'm thinking it was an early attempt at providing hydraulic flow control. It was only on the vane pumps - 53-56? I'm sure we have some Hundred Series or maybe NAA guys here who could tell us.
    Flow control allows you to slow down the rate at which your lift arms would raise. On the vane pumps there is a little wheel? lever? on the side you can turn to increase/decrease the oil flow. Ford discontinued offering any kind of flow control when they went to piston pumps on the late Hundreds - through 1964. Flow control returned in 65 as a knob you can turn on the right side just below the draft/position lever. I've had it for years and have never used it except to fool around with it a bit. The later ones work by dumping off an adjustable portion of the oil coming from the pump back into the sump before it gets to the lift cover. You can make your lift rise very slow.
    Dunno how the one on the vane pumps work.
    Ford thought flow control was a good feature because they used it on most of their models from 1965 onward.

    Jon Calder    Posted 12-05-2019 at 15:17:20 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • Good afternoon,
    Mine has a hytrol valve which I think means must be vane type pump?
    I've never messed with it. Its in the owners manual and they were very proud of it.
    Pretty sure this machine was built in '54, low serial number (1039).
    Thanks, Jon

    Ultradog MN    Posted 12-04-2019 at 10:33:50 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • If you are resealing the lift piston there's really no need to remove the side cover. Removing that round cover and looking inside for dripping is a test we recommend to determine how badly your lift piston is leaking.
    In your case, since you have to pull the top cover anyway to replace your pin there is no reason to do this test. Just replace the piston seals, cam follower pin and readjust your linkages by the book and you will be good.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-04-2019 at 10:02:24 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • IMO a modern rubber is a far better choice than leather or metal. People keep saying the backjup ring is neoprene but that has poor chemical resistance to petroleum based products and is commonly reserved for refrigeration system seals. The hydraulic cylinder rubber backup ring is almost surely Buna-N (same as the o-ring) which is far more chemically resistant to petroleum products. PTFE and Viton are more expensive options for both rings with marginal bang for the buck. All of them can be purchased from just about any industrial supply for a fraction of what CNH wants.

    YMMV,

    TOH

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-03-2019 at 10:15:20 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: hydraulic issue Ford 600
  • CNH sells the same industry stanbard o-rings you will get from any industrial supply house. Not sure about the 600 cam follower but the NAA pin was an oddball (under)size so you may find CNH a safer option. For the legacy machines CNH often sells the same aftermarket parts as the other suppliers so there is no guarantee it will be "special".

    The hydraulic high pressure connection(s) to the top cover is via a face seal port in the center housing and is sealed by the o-rings.

    TOH

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