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Subject: 9n has a Short

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Dean    Posted 12-22-2019 at 19:59:32 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • 9n has a Short
  • Last weekend my visiting son took my 41 9N for a quick trip around the property. He parked it for the night. In the morning the battery was dead. I pulled the battery and charged it, next morning it was dead again. When I removed it again, I checked between the disconnected battery cables with a volt meter and had a dead short. I see nothing obvious. Before I start diving into this, I was hoping that someone may have had this issue in the past and could point me in a direction to start. Thanks in advance.

    Dean    Posted 12-26-2019 at 10:12:09 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Please disregard post, problem solved
  • It turns out that my cutout relay was sticking intermittently. I observed it do it yesterday twice. Sticking when shut off. A slight tap would open the contacts again. New one ordered this morning. I appreciate most of the help that I received. There is always the person who may have great knowledge, but feels the way to bestow that knowledge is to be insulting and demeaning. It ruins otherwise good resources such as this forum. for that reason, I will be moving on from this forum.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-26-2019 at 14:18:51 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Please disregard post, problem solved
  • From your post down a bit, "...The cutout relay seems to be working". We asked how you determined that and got no answer. We posted the actual info from the I&T Manual on page 50 paragraph 66 on the CUTOUT for you to reference how to check. No reply. Today you say, "...It turns out that my cutout relay was sticking intermittently...I observed it twice...sticking when shut off". Observed with your VOM? The circuit is supposed to open and close, the paragraph tells us so. The other day when it was raining would have been the perfect time to take your battery in to be tested. Have you tested it yet? All these are legitimate questions and you never replied to most of them. Now you feel and say "...to bestow that knowledge is to be insulting and demeaning." Oh? OK. Well, we tried to help you. It's your tractor and your $$$ so do what you want.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JMOR    Posted 12-26-2019 at 12:42:30 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Please disregard post, problem solved
  • " to be insulting and demeaning" Where is that?

    R Geiger    Posted 12-28-2019 at 10:55:42 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Please disregard post, problem solved
  • Was I insulting and demeaning when I said I would start with checking the cutout? I agree with you I saw nothing that I thought was insulting or demeaning.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-26-2019 at 04:38:10 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • Dean-
    First the s/n means nothing other than it is a 9N or 2N model so forget about anything else. What is important is it has a 6V battery (but that doesn't mean it is wired for 6V/POS GRN) and it has the front mount distributor. We know it has a generator and cutout too. So let's start over as your original post has conflicting messages, at least the way you wrote it. We are trying to help you diagnose the problems, not beat you up. It also sounds like you are guessing, “…removed the generator and it seems to work fine.” Use a root cause problem solving method, avoid guessing. Did you motor test it? You’re trying to measure voltage and the generator output is in AMPS. It’s a 6V wound generator. You have or should have an AMMETER to show the charging rate. I also asked if the tractor ran before all this, when was the last time it ran, and what did the AMMETER show then? If it hasn’t been for a while, even more evidence leaning towards a bad battery. I suspect you do not have a defective generator or cutout so put them back on. If you have a ‘short’ it is most likely in the wiring. You said when you charged the battery overnight (you didn't need to pull it off the tractor unless you had no AC outlet available) and it was dead the next morning that should have been a HUGE clue that the battery was FUBAR. Did you take your battery to get checked like I said? If battery doesn’t meet the specific gravity level, it cannot sustain a full charge under load and will not charge the battery. If it’s dead it needs to be replaced, no charger is going to fix it. I suggest a good brand 6V AG GRP 1 battery like Interstate, DEKA, or East Penn/Duracell and avoid the bargain house brands. A hydrometer will test for specific gravity but your dealer test machine is more reliable. The next step is to get yourself the correct wiring diagrams and manuals and before connecting the new battery cables, go thru the entire wiring setup before applying power. Don’t assume colors are correct, they probably are not the OEM harness as it is, and don’t use a test light, set you VOM to continuity. If you have lights you can disconnect them for the time being just to take them out of the equation. Wire everything the way it shows on the diagram and take no shortcuts. Is there a decent OEM-style ignition switch mounted? Once wiring is confirmed to be correct you can connect the battery cables. Your tractor will start, guaranteed, unless you have a problem with the distributor but we’ll discuss later if we cross that bridge. Finally, read your essential manuals. The Clymer I&T FO-4 Manual has much technical info. Here’s a page for the cutout circuit testing method:

    FORD TRACTOR 9N-10505-B CUTOUT CIRCUIT TEST:


    Tim Daley(MI)

    Dean    Posted 12-24-2019 at 12:12:20 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Update
  • Thanks for all of the help. Removed the generator and it seems to work fine. When hooked up I am getting 6.8 volts at the battery. I do have the tensioner. The cutout relay seems to be working. With the can off I can observe it opening and closing as it should. with a digital multimeter, I am seeing a reading of 34 ohms between the terminal on the generator and the case. I am getting the same reading between battery cables (battery disconnected and ignition off). When the generator is disconnected at the terminal I have no reading between the battery cables, raining hard today so I cant work on it. If it matters, the SN is 9N51774

    JMOR    Posted 12-24-2019 at 16:04:33 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Update
  • Some observations/comments:[]
    " Removed the generator and it seems to work fine. When hooked up I am getting 6.8 volts at the battery. I do have the tensioner. The cutout relay seems to be working. With the can off I can observe it opening and closing as it should. with a digital multimeter, I am seeing a reading of 34 ohms between the terminal on the generator and the case." [If you mean gen terminal and gen case, then either you are reading meter wrong or have bad meter connection, because generator armature should be less than ONE ohm.] "I am getting the same reading between battery cables (battery disconnected and ignition off)." [That should be open circuit, i.e., infinite resistance.] "When the generator is disconnected at the terminal I have no reading between the battery cables" [Generator connected or not should make no difference, as cut out should already have generator disconnected from battery cables/all tractor circuits, except gen terminal of cut out.], raining hard today so I cant work on it. If it matters, the SN is 9N51774
    [You might wan to verify that gen is connected to cut out gen terminal and not the battery terminal of cut out.]

    Dean    Posted 12-23-2019 at 11:33:38 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • Started chasing the short. Cutout relay is fine. I do have a short between the terminal on the generator (single wire) and the positive ground. This is with the wire removed from the generator and checking between the terminal and the tractor frame. Is it time for a new generator?. A little background. I bought this tractor 8 months ago, it had been sitting un protected in the southern Arizona desert for quite some time. It saw extreme heat, rain and snow. (yes snow) I replaced the starter, battery,changed the fluids and filter, rebuilt the distributor, replaced most of the wiring behind the dash ,replaced the gauges as well as the resistor block and and it fired right up and has run fine until now.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-24-2019 at 11:56:16 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • When your tractor does run, what does the ammeter read? Before you go out and start replacing parts with new ones assuming they are defective, let's be sure you are testing things correctly like Jesse said. Just to be clear, pictured here is the 9N-10505-B ROUND-CAN CUTOUT and the OEM 2N-10000 generator with belt tensioner attached and the 9N-10000-C Generator with the belt tensioner kit attached. The 9N-10000 small A and B generators did not use a belt tensioner nor will work on the 9N-C kit. The 2N generator released the tensioner as a fixed part to the unit. The 9N-C at the same time offered a kit to apply the tensioner via a steel band –see pictures. Starting with s/n 9N-12500 all generators were the same up until the 8N model. They were all 1-Wire/3-Brush Units rated at 11 amps and used the roundcan cutout. HOW TO TEST BELT TENSION: Tractor OFF, grab the generator pulley with both hands and try to turn it. If it turns and the belt does not, the tension is too loose.

    FORD 9N-10505-B CUTOUT –USED AFTER S/N 12,500 TO S/N 258504:

    FORD TRACTOR 2N-10000 GENERATOR w/BELT TENSIONER:


    FORD TRACTOR 9N-10000-C GENERATOR w/ BELT TENSIONER KIT:

    FWIW – The 8N tensioning arm is pictured here. It attaches to the governor and is often missing from 8N tractors. Without fan belt tension regardless of what model you have, you will never charge your battery properly.
    FORD 8N TRACTOR, 48-50 GENERATOR w/BELT TENSIONER ARM:

    Tim Daley(MI)

    JMOR    Posted 12-23-2019 at 18:41:10 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • I question what it is that you define as a "short". Reason being, that the armature in that generator is about 0.1 Ohm or less, so with 'trusty Ohmmeter' in hand, you are all set for a misdiagnosis. Remove belt from generator, apply battery power to gen terminal and if it spins like an electric motor, you do not have a short in that generator. Furthermore, if cut out is good, it disconnects gen from system when engine off, so even if gen had a short, it would not discharge the battery.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-23-2019 at 12:43:40 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • If you have a n OEM generator, as with most all parts, best to rebuild rather than buy new stuff. But, your shop guy can also test and rebuild it as well if he know what he is doing. How did you test the cutout? The generator? The single wire is the armature and feeds to the ballast resistor terminal thru the ammeter and switch. I have OEM generators rebuilt and ready to go. If you want to send yours to me I can test it and fix/rebuild it or rade outright. Email is open.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    PS: Do you have a tensioning bracket on your generator? Fan belt must be held tight in order to charge the battery effectively.

    Bruce (VA)    Posted 12-23-2019 at 12:04:46 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • " Is it time for a new generator?. "

    You can buy a new generator for $150.

    Or you can fix the insulator for about $1.

    If you aren't equipped to fix it, take it to a repair shop. Might be time for bearings and brushes as well.

    Dean    Posted 12-23-2019 at 07:57:12 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • Sorry, should have said in my first post. Its a 6v pos ground system. The battery will maintain a charge when not in the tractor. Going to check the cut out relay this morning.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-23-2019 at 10:44:50 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • Did your son leave the key switch ON? Had it been starting and running fine before? Just because you have a 6V battery don't assume the wiring is all correct. By 'relay' do you mean the roundcan cutout circuit, a starter motor solenoid(should not be be one) or the dash or floor starting pushbutton? Is the Ballast Resistor wired in correctly? Is it a 1-Wire starter motor with NO solenoid? Start with the basics as stated and use a true root cause problem solving method. 1st, get the battery checked out -don't assume it is good and charged in or out of the system. While testing or replacing, check out wiring with the essential manuals before connecting power. . 2nd, go thru the entire wiring system. You can disconnect the lights just to get them out of the equation -can reconnect later when problem solved. Diagrams are all shown with the OEM correct color codes but never assume yours are wired like that. Colors don't conduct electrons. See if these will help. Also go to our HOW-TO's forum and download a copy of Wiring Pictograms by JMOR for reference.

    FORD 9N/2N TRACTOR WIRING DIAGRAMS:

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Bruce (VA)    Posted 12-23-2019 at 07:30:42 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • Start w/ the most likely cause, as R Geiger said: the cut out.

    If it has one...…….

    Jack - Iowa    Posted 12-23-2019 at 07:27:31 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • 6 or 12 volt with an alternator. Lights accidentally left on? Troubleshoot by disconnecting one device at a time. 6V, start with that cutout. Alternator, pull the output lead.

    What condition is your harness? They will develop shorts to the frame.

    Larry Holbrook    Posted 12-23-2019 at 06:40:44 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • When I had my 6 volt 8N every fall I'd clean all the connections. With 6 volt it's important to make sure everyone is making good contact. I kept a battery tender on it and the N always would start in the unheated barn regardless of how cold it was. Like others said it's most likely a battery problem. Sometimes they will have an internal short that causes them to go dead over night.

    Since I've had the 3000 I've gotten lazy. I noticed last night that it has some corrosion on the battery. It's going to be warm here in Northern Indiana today so I'll take the battery out and clean everything up. I've read where this can cause a battery to loose voltage.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-23-2019 at 05:28:55 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • It'd be helpful to tell us if you have the OEM 6V/POS GRN electrical setup or gas a 12V/NEG GRN switch over job been done? Your battery is most likely the culprit and, junk. Bad/incorrect wiring may be compounding the issue. Simply charging the battery won't d squat if it won't sustain a full charge. Have it tested at your trusty local alternator/starter shop. He has the right test equipment to do so. Most auto part franchises also can test, usually for free.

    A float charger, not a trickle charger, is a good investment. The DELTRAN©™ Battery Tender is a good brand and sold at Walmart for about $30. You need a good, fully charged battery to crank the engine, and cold weather will affect how effective that can be. Here is a bit of info that Bruce(VA) has posted in the past:

    "If you have AC power to the tractor use a float charger. No matter what else you do, the battery must be fully charged. A float charger is helpful; not a trickle charger, but a float charger. A battery charger, even a "trickle" charger, left unattended will eventually boil out a battery. I use float chargers for two reasons: battery longevity and a sure start. Battery sulfation occurs at a specific rate at "X" temperature. Over time, sulfation reduces battery performance and eventually its effects are irreversible. Sulfation of batteries starts when specific gravity falls below 1.225 or voltage measures less than 12.4 for a 12v battery, or 6.2 for a 6 volt battery. Sulfation hardens on the battery plates reducing and eventually destroying the ability of the battery to generate current. Using a float charger significantly reduces sulfation. Your battery loses 33 percent of its power when the temperature dips below freezing, and over 50 percent of its power when the temperature falls below zero. A fully charged battery will not freeze until -76°F; however, a fully discharged battery can start to freeze at 32°F. So……keep the battery fully charged! If you have a digital volt meter, 6.03 volts on a 6 volt battery and 12.06 volts on a 12 volt battery is only a 25% charge! I use Deltran Battery Tenders®™ on all the tractors, the golf cart & '29 Ford. A bit pricey for multiple units, but they work & have in-lines fuses. All are hard wired to the vehicles."

    Test the battery static. If it is weak it won't hold a charge, and most likely junk.
    Get the correct wiring diagram for your system and when battery is being tested go thru the entire wiring to verify it is correct. No shortcuts. 99.98% of all starting failures is due to incorrect/mucked up wiring whether 6V/POS GRN or 12V/NEG GRN. The tractor model number and year aren't important -the front mount (side mount if late 8N), voltage system, and wiring are for any system. Get the essential manuals and wiring pictograms.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    R GEIGER    Posted 12-22-2019 at 20:04:46 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • I would start by checking the cutout relay.

    Dn-N-Tn    Posted 12-23-2019 at 19:06:44 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 9n has a Short
  • From what he's describing----it sure sounds to me like the cut-out relay is stuck in the closed position. That would make it appear to be a short when the wire is hooked to the generator----when the wire is removed, the short goes away, and that's what should happen when the cut-out relay is working as it should and the engine quits turning the generator. The cut-out relay makes the generator and battery power source connect or disconnect depending on whether or not the generator is being rotated.

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