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Subject: Kingpin no crank hole

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Brad    Posted 03-14-2020 at 23:48:32 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Kingpin no crank hole
  • A search for "Kingpin" on the N Tractor Club forum/board didn't turn up any findings, & since this ground apparently has not previously been covered, I'll post a question.

    IT shop manual for 8N tractors shows a starting-crank passing through hole in front kingpin to engage engine.

    Since my tractor came without a crank, I thought it would be a fun project to build one of my own making, purchasing materials in kind, only to be astonished upon seeing front kingpin on 8N tractor has two bolts horizontally attaching the front king pin, but "nada" crank hole.

    I am quite a bit puzzled, why there wouldn't previously exist a standard crank hole, as-manufactured by Ford?

    Looking at below URL, you'll see what I'm talking about, clipped from IT shop manual:


    Tractor's starter works fine & fires up easily, so cranking's non-requisite, however I have a Dearborn front end loader needing access through kingpin to engine for FEL's front-driven hydraulic pump.

    It's no problem using drills/bi-metal hole saw/making necessary modifications allowing insertion of "homebrew" starting-crank through kingpin; Question: Is there something I'm overlooking which could cause issues post-modification?

    Thanks in advance for any comments, ideas or suggestions :-)

    Brad    Posted 03-17-2020 at 14:59:50 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Adding more information to the original post:

    Things are getting even stranger, when I went to look at opposite end of the kingpin (that points at the motor) where crank comes through.

    Not only was there no hand crank hole in the front of the kingpin (where you insert crank), there was also metal at the back end of the Kingpin as well! What? "When life serves lemons..." :-P

    I had figured using proper size bi-metal hole saw & drilling two smaller holes opposite sides, remove connecting metal, finishing hole for crank (through kingpin). Plan's doable on steel plate on kingpin's front, but not so much backside kingpin. Plan A through E has failed; moving on to plan "F" (F-ing project ;-)

    Took photo to enlarge for "old eyes" lol of back kingpin, it's difficult to see ... maybe there is a plug in hole, and end's not solid metal?

    Prefer avoid removing Kingpin unless necessary. Still struggling with my "obsolete" phone to upload these photos.

    John in Mich    Posted 03-17-2020 at 18:12:44 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Sounds like a previous owner replaced the original pin with a piece of solid steel.

    Brad    Posted 03-18-2020 at 08:01:06 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • That is a reasonable supposition. I've corrected numerous "farmerized" expedient/field fixes that became permanent additions that endured beyond "temporary fix" expected.

    I will have to consult my supervisor. Humorous story here. Ford 8N tractor conveniently parked next to my utility truck, containing tools to work on 8N.

    Cookie dog follows me to the truck and when I get a part out of the cab she jumps in and sits on the seat waiting for her ride. There's something I need out of the trunk of the car so that's the next thing I go to and the dog tries to figure out how to get into the car for her ride. She sees I'm not going anywhere in the car and follows me back to the Tractor which I start up and begin tuning on the carburetor. Cookie dog wants to go for a ride and it looks like the tractors it, where can a doggie go to make sure she isn't left behind? Bada bing, bada bang, bada boom! Instant doggy supervisor sitting on her "throne" lol


    TheOldHokie    Posted 03-18-2020 at 09:15:11 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • I have the front hanger complete with welded pin just like Wagner OEM. Just pop thAT solid pin out and install the hanger and you are well on your way with minimal time and expense. Unless of course someone has also "fixed" the bore in the support.....


    John in Mich    Posted 03-15-2020 at 17:33:46 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Brad,
    Tim Daley always has great detailed information to share. However, I'm curious as to your situation. Can you post a picture of your front axle bolster and the kingpin?
    You are mounting a loader and I'm curious about the hanger that bolts to the bolster for the loader to fasten to it.

    Brad    Posted 03-15-2020 at 20:22:28 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Sure thing John! Pictures taken; experiencing "technical difficulties" uploading from phone & exploring remedial options like Google Photo.

    I'm also "curious about the hangar that bolts to the bolster for loader to fasten to" ... I haven't built it yet! ;-) lol

    Did my homework/checked out solutions/ways which have worked out well for others, and thus far, principle design I'm aiming arriving at involves quick disconnect and arms/stand for FEL. Didn't look difficult on video, what could possibly go wrong? lol

    & why not? For myself, design/fabrication is an entertaining hobby, so I'm not in a race with guidelines/rules, do's and don'ts, nor in contest with judges to please, not a production manufacturing facility having bosses and co-workers to please, I've got nobody to please but myself (with caveats to safety).

    I'm definitely qualified to be one of those "old country curmudgeon" types, what would have difficulties living within Homeowner Association rules. lol :-)

    The front end loader I purchased to go on my 1949 Ford 8N was someone's stalled project, and I knew from the get-go, I'd have to purchase missing parts/pieces and fabricate as necessary, making things work out as I went along (fun-fun ;-).


    TheOldHokie    Posted 03-16-2020 at 09:15:37 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Good luck making a Wagner quick detach. The rear attachment and cylinder geometry is nothing like a modern loader with the bucket and cylinders pinned to a sub-frame. You are going to need something akin to a gantry crane to support the CG which is way rearward.

    BTW, I have the front hanger weldments that includes the pin with through hole for the drive shaft.


    Brad    Posted 03-16-2020 at 12:10:24 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • I thrive on this sort of challenge :-) More fun than doing puzzles, & satisfying results too. If it's possible to take my Dearborn FEL and adapt it to quick release, I'll find a way. I've already some basic mechanisms/principles in mind:

    My FEL hooks onto 8N's fender mounting hardware (Fenders then move to mount on FEL's mounting bracket). Cutting tubing at FEL Fender mounting bracket & welding in pipe stub (sized to fit inside FEL tubing) allows for "quick change" detaching this part of FEL from back of tractor (if you wanted fancy, pins are quicker to change-out than bolts).

    Once back of FEL was released from wheel mounts, you would need some sort of fold down support leg to hold this weight, once released. This isn't rocket science, a bolt and bracket (with a place to stow legs) will suffice. It'd be able to adjust, by raising/lowering bucket and/or rocking tractor forward or backwards to get the exact right height-fitment. No cranes, Hydraulics or fancy anything required with this setup. It's all cheap-cheap-cheap and simple as you can make it.

    Now as to how to make the front of FAL quick detach: I have a substantial, aftermarket add-on bumper protector, that is massively overbuilt to the point where it's stronger than the tractor itself. Bumper will be where I fabricate adapter (sounds better than homemade lol) which will connect between Dearborn's FEL factory mounting and massively overbuilt bumper. Anything the tractor itself could withstand, bumper can easily handle. When I get some pictures, you'll be able to intuitively get a feel for how this could easily work out. What could possibly go wrong? (everything was so simple/easy in build video) lol ;'-D

    So how do we get front to come loose of the bumper? For our quick-detach scenario, bucket is tilted down touching ground, pushing up and taking weight off bracket/bumper. Bolts, pins or what-have-you, then get removed (freeing FEL), & tractor is backed up & ready for the next job.

    I previously posted tutorial how one Homesteader goes step-by-step through converting his FEL into quick-detachable bucket (then can change out for other implements like a grappler). Method used is similar to Bobcat's skid steer mechanism).

    Bada-Bing, Bada-Bang! Bada-Boom! Poor Man's quick detachable FEL.

    A little paint (if your humor's devious, also add some silly Logo lol) AND local "Peanut Gallery" will eat it up, wanting to know where they can purchase theirs. Think I'll steer "Gallery" towards "Acme." Beep-Beep! ;-) That's all folks ...

    "Why, I don't think they make these anymore, not so much since maybe '50s. They're rarer than hen's teeth, you'd probably'll have to get one custom-built if you wanted it." ROFLOL :-D

    John in Mich    Posted 03-16-2020 at 08:00:54 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Sounds like fun. Please share your progress.

    Brad    Posted 03-27-2020 at 11:22:20 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • So far John, there's not a whole lot of progress to share, but I can tell you about a lot of dead ends! lol :-)

    The most success I've had removing stubborn corroded parts, has to do with heat-hammer-soaking, & since I'd prefer to avoid removal of front axle housing mounting bracket, etc. I'm investigating alternatives.

    Most practical method peculiar to my situation in removing kingpin/front axle pin, is via hydraulic jack & weldment jigs.

    Why has everything on my "Crank-building" project come to a screeching halt? Careful examination has revealed crank pulley's (as is the case regards front axle swivel pin/Kingpin) not setup to accept a crank AND pully doesn't look like it was set up for driving a front-mounted hydraulic pump, either. That's not OEM, so what was PO thinking? >8'@

    Looks like there's not going to be any write-ups, Journal kept nor pictures taken until I get to front end loader portion of 8N project, when I'll deal with this mess. As to how to set up FEL bucket? Check out this nifty video of one man's solution: https://youtu.be/xqI5Tj1uAv0?t=37

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 03-15-2020 at 06:49:02 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Brad-
    Where did you look for 'kingpin' info? I found almost 125,000 posts in the archives on the topic. FWIW & FYI: ALL N-Tractors came with a hand crank. Early 9Ns included one in the toolkit and later with the 2N it was added in a parts shipping kit, p/n 2N-17003 (SEE MY PIC), and issued with each new tractor, then remained as such until the end of 8N production. Most were lost or tossed aside in barns and sheds and/or never used. They are great tools to have when testing a new rebuilt engine for one example. If you can't see or find the kingpin opening, someone welded it shut, probably when they installed the FEL. There were three versions of the hand starting crank. The OEM 9N-17040; the 2N-17040 spring loaded/wood handled model issued with the 2N warhorse only; and the NAA-17040 with pilot knuckle forged on - SEE MY PIX. You cannot use the hand crank if you have a bumper guard/grille attached -it will not allow clearance to turn. Bumper guards were optional accessories -never an OEM factory installed unit. There was ho-made sketch here somewhere for those who want to make your own. It does however have the wrong diameter of stock used. The OEM crank is an 11/16" diameter steel bar and the sketch shows 5/8" diameter. Hope this helps…


    SHOWN TOP TO BOTTOM: 9N-17040; 2N-17040; NAA-17040



    Tim Daley(MI)

    Brad    Posted 03-15-2020 at 12:04:04 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Hey Tim! Thanks for your reply, that's great information to have.

    As for why my search "kingpin" turned up no results, I think I know what happened: Search didn't look through archives, rather in current/active threads. Lesson learned :-)

    The crank that I've designed (for my personal preference) is quite unique, in that it contains a ratcheting mechanism eliminating potential kickback (reminiscent of PTO overriding clutch), while perusing features from several different OEM hand-starting cranks.

    Since I don't have to satisfy any but my own preferences, I'm fabricating features I like: a) rotating "handle-sleeve" b) spring around shaft (retaining crank from dislodging) c) "boss" that prevents over-insertion of crank & looks "cool" d) hand-starting crank length designed to work past/through tractor bumper guard. e) AND Because I can. lol Unique custom features generate amusing/puzzled/confused "faces" on "peanut gallery" observers

    Since I'm putting some effort into fabricating hand crank, I don't want someone just "tossing" crank in future (who knows how many previous owners this tractor has gone through? Nobody lives forever), so I'm contemplating where on tractor to hang crank for best chances of retention. It would be simple enough to weld-up a crank stowage bracket, but I've also heard-tell battery compartment's one potential location.

    Since no one has chimed in with potential "booby trap for the unwary" in "un-welding" crank access through kingpin, looks like I'm "good to go" moving forward with my pet"cranky" project. lol ;-)

    I'll post some pictures, once I figure out how Google photos web hosting works.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 03-15-2020 at 17:47:53 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • If you want, keep a journal of your project with pictures and maybe do a write-up in our HOW-TO's so others can share. FWIW: The 2N-17040 hand crank was designed with a spring loaded device because it was meant to keep it installed handy at all times. The reason is there was no electrics on the warhorse models and so it had to be hand cranked in order to turn over. The Marvel Schebler TSX-38 carb was made with a double throw choke lever and if you look close in the picture of the LH front dogleg you will see the additional choke lever protruding so the operator could open and close the choke when cranking by hand.


    *photos courtesy of Chris Eby

    -Tim Daley(MI)

    Brad    Posted 03-15-2020 at 20:33:33 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Pretty sure you'll never have to worry about tread wearing out on those steel tires lol. Rubber must have been in short supply during the War years. Practical as may be, makes you wonder how "stiff" a ride you'd get?

    "Sweet project cars" YouTube channel has a nifty way of making regular rubber tires last a long time (not as long as war horse steel tires though) I'm applying to my Ford 8N:


    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 03-16-2020 at 05:22:23 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • The US War Board restricted production on certain commodities so they could be dedicated to the war effort -the military came first. Rubber, copper, aluminum, magnesium, zinc, brass, and some other metals were at the top of list. The 2N warhorse used the steel wheels and a magneto (no electrics) for instance. All companies were affected, not just Ford. Even food and clothing were restricted/rationed to the public. You can search the archives here for the complete story on the war production years. You need to upload your photos to a picture hosting site to then capture the url of that photo then post it in your post here. Instructions in HOW-TO's. Many of use IMGUR; it's free. PhotoBucket requires a fee. I haven't had luck using the Google stuff. John in MICH and I too would like to see what you have going on now.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Brad    Posted 03-16-2020 at 08:53:55 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Kingpin no crank hole
  • Tim, following your example and going with your advice, I've signed up for an IMGUR image Hosting account, as N Tractor tutorials I'm reading also suggest. I may eventually figure out Google's platform, but it's always good to have available options.

    Commonly, One starts out with "Plan A" works way to "B" and quite frequently, One's down to plan E or F before something begins to workout properly. lol Explains all of my "F"-ing projects >8-@ lol SNAFU!

    Some of the technical difficulties I'm experiencing with my phone occur across photo sharing platforms: "Couldn't establish a secure connection". One of the myriad means money-monger-merchandisers manipulate, forcing upgrade to newer cell phones: no support, no upgrades to the newest version of whatever, etc, etc. ad infinium.

    Penny-pinching budget-wise curmudgeon, I'm hanging on to my old phone that's perfectly suitable to my needs, and fighting back perusing forums where other Rebels like myself shares information into hacks to keep their "obsolescent" phones functioning. A long time ago, in a money-market, whose leaders "farce" away... lol

    The Farce is strong with this one :-)

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