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Subject: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?

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Brad    Posted 05-26-2020 at 09:52:56 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • Now here is something interesting, for those that like to tinker, explore and experiment with new ideas on our old antique tractors :-)

    More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency, what's not to like? It would appear according tales from some quarters, they're some money interests objecting: http://rexresearch.com/caggiano/caggiano.html#callants

    (About now, some "originality purists" are grimacing, they'd prefer nothing modified from OEM on antique tractors, only accepting period-era accouterments, and will refer one to purchasing newer model tractors to experiment on & leaving antiques alone. Yep, I'm surely an old curmudgeon, finding dark humor in this! lol) ;-p

    Old technology, well-proven and many times replicated by verifiable, reliable sources, it's old-school tech, which you never hear anything about, go figure? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Pq_m2ArBWg

    https://www.free-energy-info.com/VortexFuelReforming.pdf unless you like to tinker, design and experiment, you'll never know about, or have one of these devices, because it's a sure bet they're never going to wind up on retail store shelves for consumers to purchase :-) lol

    steveVa    Posted 05-27-2020 at 12:37:56 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • Physics.
    Gasoline 124000 btu/gallon

    Brad    Posted 05-27-2020 at 13:07:02 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • Thanks for that! :-) A good resource to be aware of, I've put a shortcut on my desktop to your link.

    I grew up in an era of B&W TV, before handheld calculators, cable TV or the internet :-), not to mention PCs weren't a thing lol

    It is amazing, online engineering calculators and such like we have access to today!

    Sharing of knowledge on forums is truly a blessing to any DIYer :-)

    Brad    Posted 05-27-2020 at 10:44:12 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Moving forward, experimenting, testing claims
  • Clearly the way to move forward is in experimenting and testing results with my Ford 8N tractor for GEET technology replication.

    I do believe that my best choice would be to build the free plans for a small engine, following that learning curve, once mastered, building larger GEET unit for my tractor.

    If I ever make it to that point, I can post up an instructional tutorial in the "how to" section for others to try.

    That way, no one else need spend time or expense building a GEET unit, until I know for sure of performance, via testing on a small engine & Ford 8N tractor. What's not to like about that?

    I have a small 2 and 1/2 horsepower Briggs & Stratton horizontal shaft engine, coupled to a water pump for garden irrigation, that would be an ideal candidate for GEET testing.

    With video showing successful results, step-by-step, no-fail, "easy to understand and follow" plans placed into N Tractor Club's "how to" section, just about anyone interested should be able to build a GEET for their own personal, non-commercial use :-)

    Now everyone will just have to wait (unless they'd prefer experimenting on their own), I might possibly, eventually get there! lols >;'-D

    Ultradog MN    Posted 05-27-2020 at 10:33:48 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • Experimenting is good. Tinkering is great. Seeking knowledge and a better way keeps you young.
    Call me a curmudgeon if you like though I don't give a hoot about originality.
    My 3000 is actually a 3600 in disguise. It has 8 speed transmission with live pto. It also has live hydraulics which on later tractors is completely unrelated to the pto. It has differential lock, dual remote service valves, convertable category I/II balls on the lift arms, power steering, 8.8 gpm hydraulic pump, hydraulic flow control. It has position control, draft control and draft WITH position control. It produces ~38 hp at the pto from a diesel engine which is much more reliable and has much greater longevity than a gas engine - particularly an N engine.
    It has much heavier rear axles that are superior to those with splined hub and external nut. It will lift more on the 3 point, go faster - and slower than an N. It has 2 reverse speeds.
    My tractor's value is in the $4K-$5K range. That's cheap.
    As I stated above, tinkering and experimenting are good. But as I have stated before, tinkering and experimenting can only go so far.
    You could Never make an N as capable or as reliable as a stock 3000 or 3600.
    Still want to tinker? Want more hp than the 175 CI diesel engine will give you? Dropping a 183, 192 or 201 CI engine into the tractor is a direct, bolt up piece of cake.
    Want more HP yet? Put a turbo kit on a 201 and get a gear busting 70 HP out of it. Maybe port and polish the head and turn the pump up and get a few more. Or heck, drop a 233 or 256 4 cyl engine engine in it and push it to 100 HP.
    Sick of points and carbs?
    Stick new pistons, head and fuel delivery system in a gasser and viola! you have a diesel.
    Want a better loader tractor? Stick the front end from a 3400, 4400 or 4500 under it.
    Want better power steering than the 3600 has?
    Stick the hydrostatic system from a 545 under the cowel and steer it with one finger with a ton of dirt in the loader bucket.
    Want superb inboard wet disc brakes and double reduction rear end?
    Put the rear end from a 2810 or 3910 on it.
    Want more hydraulic flow? Like 17 gpm or more? Add the dual pump system from a 4610 to it.
    It's all just tinkering. It's all just learning new stuff. And fun to boot.
    The best part is you will still have all the other standard and optional items which I enumerated above - on a platform not much bigger than an N.

    Brad    Posted 05-27-2020 at 10:59:39 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • I have seriously contemplated building an auxiliary transmission, beginning with DIY casting and machining. I'll have to save that for later, more bang-for-the-buck experimenting with GEET.

    For most of the things that people want their tractors to do, you would be surprised at the number of tutorials and people who've DIY done things the hard way, lols merely for the Pure Pleasure and entertainment Factor! :-)

    At this point, I really think it best I'd be finishing up projects already commenced on my 8N tractor, and writing up tutorials for the "how to" section lol :-)

    One of my favorite forums is this DIY-Build tractor forum: https://www.tractorbynet.com/forums/build-yourself/

    Ultradog MN    Posted 05-27-2020 at 14:37:57 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • TBN was a decent forum before they filled it so entirely with advertising that you can barely wade through the place.

    Gaspump    Posted 05-26-2020 at 12:58:07 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • Interesting that Allen's saga still is out there on the net. Very obscure as to its origins and zippo for any verification, internet or elsewhere. I can recall many a story of similar repression to that one going as far back as to WWII days. Often in the last pages of mags like Popular Mechanics or Mechanics Illustrated one could find classified ads touting devices like Allen's that would give you unbelievable mileage, or even how to inject water to make your gas mileage soar. Most of them asked you send $5 or so for a full and guaranteed set of plans. In this day and age of those who seem to believe if it's on the net its true it may be prudent to bring back what we often heard as children, "Don't believe anything you hear and only one half of what you see".

    Brad    Posted 05-28-2020 at 16:41:38 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: More Info on Allen's FIVS saga & GEET const
  • Did some more research to see if I could locate you any further information on Allen's saga, since you've indicated that you'd failed to locate any verification online: "obscure as to its origins".

    What I found for starters was in Patrick J. Kelly's book about investigations he'd done into these type inventions. Seems like as good a place as any to begin looking?

    What I found is in chapter 10, "Automotive Systems" as I was reading through the different variations of lots of different inventors who're coming at the problem to solve it from different angles. (My interest in "automotive systems" info, pertains as may be applied to my Ford 8N tractor :-)

    Some folks achieved more success than others, and among this bunch (of course) there was information on Allen & his FIVS.

    I'm glad your previous "Allen Saga inquiry" prodded me to take a look, because I found useful information on GEET. Surprisingly, it was located underneath another name! lol :-) "vortex fuel reforming"

    My "GEET interest" doesn't start until about page 9 of chapter 10 (that's where they begin concerning GEET & replications).

    Apparently "GEET-tech" was a thing before Pantone's further refinements? Back in prior days, they dubbed devices "vortex fuel reforming." Info runs about four pages (giving GEET construction details I hadn't seen anywhere else, which were uncovered through Kelly's on-going investigations).


    Brad    Posted 05-26-2020 at 13:57:31 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • When I was a kid back in high school (many decades ago :-) there was a fellow going around giving lectures and selling plans to build high mileage carburetors.

    Later in technical school, same thing happened, and this time I was able to talk to some of the folks from the classes and what their results were.

    Everyone else told me that it was impossible, giving lots of reasons why things were the way they were, but that didn't exactly square with results of people's experiments.

    I quickly decided that the only way to sort out the lairs and really know for sure, was to verify something yourself. Then I found out it was considerably more complicated than that!

    After two fires & one explosion, I finally had a carburetor that worked exactly as well as those commercially available through manufacturers.

    My conclusion was, developing and experimenting was not for the faint of heart, most people will give up well before they ever achieve any useful results (as I had done), before all avenues worth exploring were exhausted.

    I didn't consider my efforts a failure, but a learning experience. I'm not convinced high mileage hasn't been accomplished or is impossible, but I am quite convinced that it's not an easy thing to achieve, and requires more perseverance and expense than I or most others perceive.

    From what I've observed, most people (outside of their specific job accomplishments), largely make retail purchases, and if something's not on store shelves, imho they're not up for making things otherwise happen, so I conclude those who feel threatened by advances in technology's disrupting their business models, need have little to fear from "Joe Lunch Pail".

    Since I like to tinker and experiment, I'll always be modding and trying new things, and who knows? Might eventually succeed in replicating something worthwhile, but would letting other people know of success be a good idea? I suppose we could ask the "Men in Black"? lol :-)

    MIBs: Make it, use it on the QT, don't let anybody know about what you're doing

    JMOR    Posted 05-26-2020 at 14:58:48 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • Now, that boy can talk some chit!

    TheOldHokie    Posted 05-27-2020 at 05:56:24 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • Clearly a student of Joe Newman

    Newman's Energy Machine


    Brad    Posted 05-27-2020 at 08:40:26 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • Joe Newman? I'll have to look him up. Unfortunately, the article you've linked is a bit one-sided, and I prefer reviewing the entire story.

    It's rumored to be the three greatest lies in history: "The check is in the mail." "I promise I won't do it again" and "I'm from the government and I'm here to help you." lol ;-)

    I've got to see something more convincing than a statement from the Bureau of Standards, or an action of US patent office, something more along the lines of an independent, unfettered, free-of-influence, unbiased-evaluation, before I'm willing to make a decision on writing something off.

    I'm more interested in checking out the work of someone who's actually gone out there and done a bit of Investigation, and actually talked to the people who've built and tried things. That to me, is more reliable as a jumping-off point to further DIY replication/verification, than trusting some source that may not have my best interests at heart.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 05-27-2020 at 09:26:09 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • The story is not one sided. Newman's machine did not work as claimed. I spent 30 years working as a researcher at NIST and if you want something measured accurately they are quite literally the best in the world at it. Try reading the NBS technical report on their examination of his prototype and their test results. You will find a link to it in the bibliography of that article.The NBS/NIST physical metrology people are world leaders in measurement science. Here's a 2016 news release describing one of their newest measurement toys: NIST-4 Watt Balance. It is used to measure energy levels at the photon level. So even using 1985 technologies test rigging and measuring the energy produced from Newman's contraption accurately enough to show it did not come even close to performing as claimed was not a big challenge.

    I personally have never seen the NIST-4 balance - built after I retired - but I think its about 5 stories underground in a special purpose and very precisely climate controlled laboratory anchored on bedrock. That article is a bit old - I think they have since measured Planck's constant down to an error accuracy of 13 parts in a billion - sufficiently precise for use as a new international standard for the kilogram. Pretty impressive given the already minuscule magnitude of the physical values being measured.


    Brad    Posted 05-26-2020 at 15:20:48 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • "If you want something done right, you have to do it yourself."

    I've always found the best way to truth is through trial and examination of facts, starting with what other people have found true, as a jumping off point to proving verification.

    That is why when I'm having issues with my Ford 8N tractor I always listen to folks like Tim Daily, Bruce, TOH and others wisdom and experiences.

    I've also learned that "those who know do." and “Those who can't do, teach. And those who can't teach, teach gym.” ― Woody Allen, Annie Hall: Screenplay ;-p lols

    j    Posted 05-27-2020 at 12:47:21 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • I always heard it this way:
    “Those who can't do, teach. And those who can't teach, preach. And those who can't preach, become politicians!"

    Brad    Posted 06-01-2020 at 20:42:03 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: More power, cleaner air, and better fuel efficiency?
  • j,

    I like your quote better than Woody Allen's! :-) lol

    I'll close out this thread with more info DIY replicating small engine "vortex reforming" GEET devices for an individual's personal use.

    Video showing demo working DIY replicated units, with an explanation of politics behind energy consumption and legislation:


    This next video has been removed from YouTube, but it's still available on Dailymotion (for now); it speaks of high-mileage research vehicles and mileage accomplishments of oil companies. https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x2u3xi2

    Paul Pantone, the inventor of GEET, died in 2015 and his patents are from the 1990s, so they're pretty much expired, and anyone can build devices for their own non-commercial use.

    As you can see in my previous post, DIY plans are free and have been since about 1995, to DIY build a unit for small engines less than 20 horsepower, and prove for yourself if technology exists and is actually a real-functioning "thing."

    There's just a question of whether someone's curious enough to go through the effort and expense of replicating results with DIY plans, and finding out for themselves if device works or not.

    If you want more information to research building your own DIY replication, you might search for "Vortex plasma reforming" since search for "GEET" brings up copious quantities of links for a style of Indian music named geet.

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