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Subject: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump

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Phil Ryalls    Posted 07-30-2020 at 07:12:01 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • Is it possible to rebuild the hydrolic pump on a Golden Jubillee?

    Ultradog MN    Posted 07-30-2020 at 15:46:58 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • I think at one time Ford sold a hydraulic manifold to adapt the much more common 1956?-64 piston pump to an NAA/Jube. The piston pumps aren't difficult to rebuild and parts are not too expensive for them.
    You'd have to watch ebay, etc for one and also buy the pump but you might come out ahead money wise doing that.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 07-30-2020 at 17:41:17 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • The hydraulic "manifold" on an NAA is just a set of steel tubes that run under the tractor. The only difference between the piston and vane pump manifolds is the flange on the pump end. You can buy a new piston pump "manifold" for about $350. Alternatively you can buy a $60 conversion flange for your old vane pump manifold. You then cut the vane pump flange off the tubes and weld or braze the new flange on. Not a job for an amateur and the services of a professional welder are recommended. Once you have the manifold converted a commercially rebuilt piston pump will run you another $800 plus.

    In other words expect to spend something north of $1200 for a conversion.

    TOH

    Ultradog MN    Posted 07-30-2020 at 21:00:15 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • Dunno.
    I haven't done it.
    I mostly just mess with the 3 bangers and all mine have factory gear pumps now. Have read about several conversions on the YT Ford board as the early Hundreds also used a vane pump and Ford did make a manifold to convert those.
    I do think your price estimates are quite high.
    A used pump plus rebuild parts - if needed - wouldn't cost that much.
    I have 3 or 4 similar piston pumps for the Thousands and can't give them away.
    You should mention your own gear pump conversion to him. Might be what he needs.
    On another note, 4 of those 1/2" JIC Male x 3/4-16 Ford O-Ring Port Male fittings should be here Saturday.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 07-30-2020 at 22:28:14 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • I deal with these pumps a lot and I have a very good handle on what the costs are. I didnt mention my gear pump conversions because I cant make them fast enough to keep up with demand. Customers are people with worn out vane AND piston pumps looking for an inexpensive and reliable alternative to rebuilding OEM pumps. Not just NAA but hundred, and thousand series tractor owners as well. At $575 the gear pump conversions are less than half the cost of a vane to piston pump conversion and at $375 cheaper and more reliable than rebuilding a worn piston pump. I have such a backlog of orders I can't keep up and for the time being I am turning people away.

    I purchased the original Ford prints for the OEM piston pump components and I am currently working with a local CNC shop to get the replacements for the OEM wobble shafts manufactured in bulk to speed up the process. I already have a CNC source roughing the NCA 905C to SAE-AA pump adapter plates for me. The rest is off the shelf parts and and a little bit of final machining.

    If you have old piston pumps to give away I'll take all you have. I take the nose casting and drive gear off them and throw the rest away. Buying those parts new adds $200 in core charges to the cost of a conversion.

    TOH

    Ultradog MN    Posted 07-31-2020 at 03:45:15 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • Perhaps Phil Ryalls will forgive me if I hijack his thread a bit further...
    Up through 1975 Ford used a piston pump on their 2/3000s and 4000s without I PTO. Piston pumps produced ~4.4 gpm.
    In 76 they gave the 26/3600s a hydraulic upgrade. Lift cover redesign, draft WITH position control, oil cooler and a gear pump with oil filter that produced almost double the flow @ ~8.5 gpm.
    I am starting to see more folks ask if they can use the higher flow gear pumps on their pre 76 models.
    The change is pretty simple - a bit of plumbing. Pump is a bolt-on swap.
    My question: In general, are there any issues to consider if you double the flow in a system not designed for it?
    Thanks.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 07-31-2020 at 06:31:57 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • I dont consider this discussion a hijack. Its discussing options relevant to the original question.

    I have been asked a similar question by the people inquiring about my gear pump conversions. The pumps I use are sized to match the flow rate of the OEM pumps but you could double the flow at the same cost with a bigger pump. So I will give you the same answer I give them.

    Open center control valves and systems are sized to handle a maximum flow. Substantially increasing the flow rate can have undesirable consequences. Take the NAA as an example. That valve design employs an unloader spool that acts as a pilot for the main control spool. The main spool is shifted by a pressure differential applied to the valve circuitry when the 3pt handle us operated. Its conceivable that doubling the flow rate may cause enough back pressure that the balance in those pilot circuits is disrupted and they dont operate properly. At higher engine RPM draft and position control may not work properly. That is obviously a gross general speculation in response to a general question and I dont have a definitive answer. I'm sure there is some head room built into all of the designs and you can certainly go a little bigger but how much is difficult to predict. Doubling the flow is a hefty increase. So all I can say for sure is try it and see what happens

    I took a look at those later model pumps - only a couple hundred bucks which is cheaper than my conversions. However judging from the picture it's a lot longer than the older piston pumps. Will it actually bolt up on an NAA or Hundred series engine? My understanding is that on those engines there is an issue with little to no clearance for a longer pump. If it will bolt on and work I'd drop my conversions in favor of it and consider just making the bits needed to plumb it into the older machines. That looks like it requires something more than OTS fittings. If you are sure they will bolt up to a 134 and 172 engine I will actually pop for one of those pumps and enlist a Guinea pig willing to try it and see how it works.

    TOH

    TheOldHokie    Posted 07-31-2020 at 06:49:17 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • Looking at some better pictures the mounting flange for gear pump is different than the NCA905C housing. The bolts are offset behind the drive gear and I cant see how that would bolt on to a 134 or 172 engine.

    TOH

    Ultradog MN    Posted 07-31-2020 at 07:38:25 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • TOH,
    Thanks.
    I wasn't talking about putting one of these pumps on a 1953-64 tractor.
    I really doubt a post 1965 pump would even bolt onto a pre 65 tractor.
    Was just wondering about any negative effects from doubling the flow in one of these tractor hydraulic systems


    TheOldHokie    Posted 07-31-2020 at 07:54:37 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • My misunderstanding. My gut feeling is 2X the flow is going to be problematic in one or more ways but the only way to know for sure is try it.

    TOH

    Select-O-Speed    Posted 07-30-2020 at 16:57:35 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • You are correct U.D. Here in the Southeast, the Vickers type Vane pumps were wearing out prematurely. FoMoCo attributed it to "Fine Particulate Dust" in this region of the country. A Factory Campaign was initiated to replace the Vane pumps with the new design Piston Pumps. As you stated a different Manifold was required in this conversion. I myself have never seen a 53/54 model with the original Vane pump still installed here in Eastern NC. FWIW SoS.

    steveVa    Posted 07-30-2020 at 12:24:08 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • Might be easier and less costly to find a good used one.

    steveVa    Posted 07-30-2020 at 13:12:49 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Yikes..
  • Yikes! Those pumps are pricey even used. Cheapest one on ebay I saw was $485.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 07-30-2020 at 08:21:40 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • Yes. It is always best to rebuild the OEM parts on these old vintage machines. Major components like the carb, distributor, starter, generator, water pump, hyd pump, steering, and more can be rebuilt. They were designed to be rebuilt over and over. The best investments one can make for any tractor owner are the Essential Manuals and read religiously. You should have copy of the OEM Owner/Operator’s Manual, a copy of the 39-53 MPC (Master Parts Catalog), a copy of the 53-59 MPC, and a copy of the Clymer I&T FO-19 Manual. The FO-20 has more on the 134 CID engine as well. There is also an OEM FORD SERVICE MANUAL that was supplied for technicians at the Ford Tractor Dealerships. All of these are available at Dennis Carpenter Reproductions.

    FORD OEM NAA TRACTOR OWNER MANUAL:

    CLYMER/I&T FO-19 SHOP REPAIR MANUAL – FORD NAA ’53-’54:

    FORD TRACTOR 1939-1953 MPC:

    FORD TRACTOR 1953-1959 MASTER PARTS CATALOG:


    Tim *PloughNman* Daley(MI)

    TheOldHokie    Posted 07-30-2020 at 08:21:08 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • Yes. Rebuild kits are available for both the vane and piston pumps. Expect to spend $400 plus on a rebuild. How successful that expendirure is depends on the type and amount of wear on the pump.

    TOH

    Gene    Posted 08-03-2020 at 09:28:28 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Golden Jubillee hydrolic pump
  • I did my vane pump this spring. I spent the $400 for the ring and rotor kit. When I opened the pump the side plates were messed up, I stoned them and got most of the bad parts out. I reassembled to test at that point.
    Not really any better,1000 psi and poor performance when hot.

    Opened up again, planning to get the side plates more perfect. At that point I found the rotor stuck on the splines of the pump shaft and my hand cut manifold gaskets were a poor match (suction leak). Previous wear of the splines and a new rotor did not match up well. I bought a new pump shaft, stripped the pump down further, pressed the one bearing off and on. The good news was that the hard to find shaft seal stayed in the housing and I simply slid the old shaft out and the new one in. (no leaks!)

    Using a large whetstone I got the side plates smoothed up and flat. Reassembled with more accurate gaskets and I put it back on.

    I filled pump with oil prior to mounting, but it would not prime and pump. I did the air hose in the dipstick trick, no luck. Finally I cracked the pressure line at the pump while it was running, oil dribbled out, i tightened line and success!

    $550 later my vane pump works! 1900 psi and it lifts a heavy load at near idle when hot.

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