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Subject: 2N coolant

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abraham    Posted 10-27-2020 at 18:21:24 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • 2N coolant
  • Weather getting cooler,the tractor i just bought has no coolant.
    Looks like previous owner was in the process of replacing radiator,looks clean and painted.
    I plan to put in a new 160 thermostat and not sure if i need a particular type of coolant.
    So far i have done the suggested mineral spirits in cylinders and drained oil.
    Currently have mineral spirits in oil pan,will drain and let air dry before new oil and filter.
    Engine is free and will be installing new plugs,points,condenser.
    Has new battery and cables.
    Getting a new belt.
    Sound good so far?
    Thank you for all responses.

    Bruce(VA)    Posted 10-27-2020 at 20:36:05 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolant
  • Always use the conventional ‘green ‘ antifreeze. Never use the ' long life' stuff.

    Dead Eye Dave    Posted 10-28-2020 at 03:06:25 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolant
  • Bruce......why not the long life coolant? Dave

    Bruce(VA)    Posted 10-28-2020 at 06:57:40 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolant
  • Antifreeze manufacturers have formulated their products for long life and the inhibitor attacks among other things silicone compound – the most commonly used base for gasket sealants. It also attacks lead-based products (solder and Babbit), some yellow metals (cam bearings, radiators) and conventional gaskets and packing materials. Do NOT use coolants with OAT inhibitors in your Model A. Read the label and use only IAT (Inorganic Additive Technology) inhibited antifreeze. OAT stands for “Organic Acid Technology” based corrosion inhibitors and they are designed to have longer service life than that of IAT coolants. Unfortunately, that feature comes with a bad side effect to older cars. One fellow decided to change antifreeze in his antique car. His regular brand was out of stock so he bought the “advanced” formula. Four weeks later he found pools of antifreeze under his car. The antifreeze had dissolved the old gaskets. It was formulated with OAT inhibitors.

    Here are some tips for finding IAT coolants:

    Prestone says that all of their current antifreezes are OAT formulas.

    Peak says that their antifreeze and coolant is an IAT formula. The container is blue. It is important that it not say “long life”.

    Peak Sierra brand is propylene glycol for those who prefer that. It too uses an IAT formula.

    Zerex says that Zerex Original Green is an IAT formula. It comes in a white container. Do not use their G-05 formula in the gold jug.

    Select-O-Speed    Posted 10-28-2020 at 08:33:20 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolant
  • Wow!! That is some good information Bruce. That may be the explanation of the mysterious pools of green I see on floor occasionally. Is the formulation usually printed on the jugs? Thank you for posting that. SoS

    TheOldHokie    Posted 10-28-2020 at 10:18:02 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolant
  • This is a lot like the ZDDP debate - lt has a basis in historical fact but chemistry is an evovling technology and you need to rely on good science not anecdotal stories from the web if you want to stay current. The problem has been known for some time. This rather dated SAE study is a good historical read as a starting point - you can get the actual study if you want to pop for the $50.

    Long life coolant chemistry has and continues to evolve. What was true 10, 20, or 30 years ago may not be true today. The primary offender in early OAT products was the 2-Eha formulation pioneered by and still widely used by Prestone. Subsequent chemistry has replaced 2-Eha with other chemistry and most modern hybrid formulations (HOAT) are considered safe for use in older cars and trucks.

    The bottom line is IAT coolant works just fine in older equipment but but has to be changed every two years or it too will damage your cooling system. If that is OK with you use IAT. But there ARE long life formulations that will last longer and protect just as well if not better than IAT in that equipment. And don't bet the mortgage or your cooling system on the color meaning anything - read and understand the label.

    TOH

    2000-06-19
    Solder Protection with Extended Life, Carboxylate-Based Coolants 2000-01-1979

    Silicate-free, carboxylate based technology as typified by Texaco Extended Life Coolant (TELC) and Caterpillar Extended Life Coolant (ELC), both meeting Caterpillar's EC-1 Coolant Specification, offer excellent corrosion protection for commercial lead solders commonly used in the fabrication of copper/brass radiators and heater cores throughout the trucking industry. Results of laboratory testing using solders from commercial radiators manufacturers and extensive field coolant analysis compare extended life technology with the popular conventional coolant technologies.
    In the laboratory, the effect of coolant concentration on solder protection is explored using the glassware corrosion test, ASTM D-1384. At concentrations ranging from 33% up to 75% the carboxylate technology offers comparable to superior protection when compared to the popular heavy-duty conventional coolant containing silicates and phosphates.

    More importantly, however, real world field experience is gleaned from extensive coolant analysis. These analyses, representing a broad array of heavy-duty diesel engines using either conventional or extended life coolants, provide clear evidence of the superior solder protection offered by carboxylate technology. Coolant analysis from over 8000 engines is provided to relate coolant lead levels to coolant solder protection. As coolant concentration increases with conventional technology, the amount of lead found in the coolant sample also increases indicating the presence of active corrosion. By comparison, lead levels observed with extended life, carboxylate coolants remain low over the range of coolant concentrations observed. The low lead levels cannot be explained by solubility differences and indicate excellent solder protection at all glycol levels analyzed when using Extended Life coolant technology.Finally, examination of cooling system components taken from a truck with a million mile history on Extended Life technology confirms excellent solder protection over this extended period without the need for supplemental coolant additives as would be required if conventional technology were used.

    And here is what Caterpillar says today about their current long life formulation which is recommended for ALL caterpillar equipment ever made:

    New chemical technology for long life

    Cat ELC incorporates an advanced formula technology with organic additive
    corrosion inhibitors. Instead of nitrates, silicates, phosphates, borates, and
    amines, Cat ELC contains mono- and dibasic organic acid salts for
    maximum protection of the six basic metal alloys-copper, solder, brass, steel,
    cast iron, and aluminum-found in most heat transfer systems.
    Some nitrites
    and molybdates are added to help protect the iron components in the cooling
    system, reducing steel corrosion and pitting effects

    Bruce(VA)    Posted 10-28-2020 at 13:46:24 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolantth
  • Great info.

    I stand corrected.

    Tnx

    TheOldHokie    Posted 10-28-2020 at 16:40:33 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolantth
  • You are not corrected because you were not wrong - simply painting the picture with a little too broad a brush. You are 100% correct in pointing out the ill effects of certain OAT formulations - specifically DEXcool and others which still rely on 2-Ethylhexanoic acid (2-Eha) in their formulations. In older cooling systems those formulations WILL degrade solder joints and precipitate out lead (solder bloom) although it takes some time. But the industry has caught up and there are extended life alternatives that don't have those problems. The trick is knowing enough to tell the difference when reading the label which is largely sales hype written by a marketing grunt not an engineer or chemist.

    TOH

    Bruce(VA)    Posted 10-29-2020 at 06:26:00 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolantth
  • ok, tnx

    I know you have old tractors and don't like to change coolant every two years anymore than I do, so what brand of long life coolant do you use?

    I ask because as you said the label " .... is largely sales hype written by a marketing grunt not an engineer or chemist."

    The last time I bought anti-freeze, of all the brands they had, only ONE was clearly labeled IAT. Some long-life brands were probably ok, but is was impossible for me to tell.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 10-29-2020 at 10:25:30 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolantth
  • I don't buy AF often and its hard keeping up with what is on the shelves at the stores - manufacturers keep changing the names and packaging while providing darn little in the way of actual formulations.

    For the tractors I have historically stayed with products labeled as "universal" antifreeze. You know - the ones labeled "any make or model". This typically means some HOAT formulation but you seldom know the specifics. The big labeling focus seems to be the use of silicates and/or phosphates. At this time the use of carboxylate chemistry has become almost standard in most long life AF so I more or less ASSUME it is being used in anything labeled as universal.

    My current shop inventory of jugs - some empty - is as follows:

    1. Peak universal long life(very old) - it was green in color but clearly not an IAT. It does not say silicate and phosphate free which makes the claim of Asian and European car compatability sort of dubious. Probably not even on the shelf today
    2. I also have several full jugs of Prestone long-life universal AF with Cor-Guard technology. It is greenish yellow in color and again some sort of OAT formulation. Like the Peak it does not say silicate and phosphate free. Prestone is now labeling their other products with Cor-Guard as non-2EH but the jugs I have do not say that. I have been using it in all of the Kubotas for a while now. Anecdotally the older one is most definitely a vintage soldered radiator and no problems there.
    3. Chevron Delo ELC. Purchased at Walmart it is red in color and prominently claims CAT EC-1 certification on the front label. The back says it is a carboxylate OAT formulation, contains no silicates or phosphates, and contains nitrites. Winner, winner, chicken dinner both in terms of chemistry and disclosure. I have not used it yet but the price was right, the label was explicit, and it will go in the next tractor that needs a complete flush and fill. I will definitly not mix it with the Prestone stuff.

    Per the OEM's my RAM gets DEXcool and the BMW's get their pricey Pentosin fills.

    TOH

    Bruce(VA)    Posted 10-29-2020 at 15:30:34 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolantth
  • YES!!!

    Thanks.

    I tried, like I said, but no cigar for me.

    Time to change the antifreeze in one 8N and both Model A's. This is what I'll get.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 10-29-2020 at 17:19:48 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolantth
  • After doing some looking it appears Peak is now offering a lineup of "Original Equipment Technology" formulations - Asian, European, and North America. Here is an IAT offering from them if want to stay with that. NAPA says they have it in stock - $19 per 50/50 gallon. Only cost you $60 + tax to service the 8N:

    Peak NA OET Green. Only cost you $60 + tax to fill up your 8N:

    TOH

    TheOldHokie    Posted 10-29-2020 at 16:30:00 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolantth
  • Good - you can eat the first oyster and I will watch.

    TOH

    Bruce(VA)    Posted 10-28-2020 at 06:59:33 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 2N coolant
  • PS...........

    I wrote this for Model A's, but it applies to N tractors as well.

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