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Subject: Original look

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BW    Posted 01-12-2021 at 16:36:17 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Original look
  • My 50 8N project is coming along nicely, hoping to be ready for paint in a couple months when the weather will allow for it.
    Looking for info as to original look of many of the fasteners, pins ect. Would like to try and get as original looking as possible. Have looked through the info in the “how to” section as well as searched thru hundreds of pictures ect. Is there a good resource to find which bolts, pins, nuts were painted and which were not? Things such as the nuts holding oil filter, the fuel and oil lines, manifold ect? Doubtfull anyone that knows whats original will ever see this tractor but trying to get the small details correct.
    Thanks

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 01-15-2021 at 06:41:49 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • Yes, as Steve mentioned, and I forgot to emphasize, is that most fasteners today are not designed like the original Ford ones were as far as bolt length, hex head size, and nut and washer thickness. FORD designed bolts with lengths being in fractional sizes -it's the way they made them back then. Both Henrys came from farms and insisted that a bolt length would not protrude more than 2 threads beyond the fastened nut. The reason was so that the farmer wouldn't catch his clothing on one and rip his pants or shirt. Hence many bolts and studs were made in odd lengths that are no longer industry standards. For example, a 2.12" bolt length is not made anymore. You get 2.5" (may find a 2-1/4")and that's it. Hex heads AF (Across Flats)nuts bolts used large sizes for example, a 5/8-18 hex nut and bolt used a 1-1/16" AF size. Now they are 15/16 or 1.0". One reason for this is that the FORD 9N-17014 Plow Wrench, originally a Ferguson design and concept, was intended for the two main sizes used on the plow and tractor - 11/16" and 1-1/16". Nuts and washers were also made extra thick. I have my own additional/alternate theory. Material costs. It may seem trivial but if you do the math it makes sense. Using the standard size of 1/2-20" for thread pitch, calculate the material used to make a 1.0" length. Nominal thread size is 20 TPI (Threads Per Inch) which is also the 'pitch' of the thread. Take 1.0" and divide it by 20 to get the pitch dimension -the distance from one thread to the next. Thus, 1 ÷ 20 = .05" . Every two threads equals .100". Multiply .100 by 10 to get 1.0". Every inch or fraction thereof of material would add up in costs. It may seem trivial as I said but when you consider making tens of thousands or millions of nuts and bolts, that 1 inch of steel used to make that bolt adds up in dollars and cents. New bolt lengths can be frustrating to work with too. Some bolts are not threaded completely the full length of the bolt. That may leave it short and not be able to fully fasten down. A 2.12” bolt length would need now use a 2.5” bolt. To be authentically original, you would need to grind or rubber wheel it down 3/8”. If the new bolt is a shoulder bolt, not completely threaded, it may fall short when fully fastened down. Using a thread die to make it as such can ruin the die because the bolt is probably hardened and it will ruin the die. Hex heads also most likely made smaller to reduce material and costs. Some can be found new like the original 7/16-20” Hex Nuts used 11/16” AF and can still be bought as such. However, a 7/26-20” Bolt will only have a 5/8” AF Hex Head now. Dennis Carpenter makes several of the OEM fasteners and sizes, especially the fine thread carriage bolts. That is why I highly recommend when doing a restoration on a tractor or implement you try to keep and reuse as many original fasteners as possible.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Steve Dabrowski    Posted 01-14-2021 at 20:27:55 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • One thing that is often overlooked are the bolts used on the fenders for attaching to the fender frames and attaching light brackets. Modern bolts of the correct size have one size smaller hex heads than the original and are shorter in height. However the nuts available now are the same size as the original across the hex and thicker than the original heads. I bought a hundred plain steel 3/8 nuts from McMaster and made a jig to turn them down to the correct thickness then cut threaded rod to length and inserted it into the shortened nut with a jam nut to provide 1/8" space from the top of the rod to the upper nut surface, filled it with weld and turned it smooth on the lathe.

    It does make a difference in detail even though seemingly small. You will need to do 12 in all for your 8N. If welding is too much you can use Loctite maximum strength thread lock (be sure to use the solvent that goes with it) to attach the nut to the threaded rod and fill it with JB Weld and then file to finish. That works also and these fasteners do not see much stress and tightening them in place is done with the nuts under the fender so only need to restrain them on the painted surface.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 01-15-2021 at 05:52:40 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • If you have a lathe those old style fasteners are very easy to make from hex bar with the desired AF size.

    TOH

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 01-15-2021 at 12:14:08 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • When I was back working, was a CNC Mfg Specialist for 35 years, lathes were my forte, I had collet pad hex jaws purchased in 11/16"; 1-1/16", and 5/8" sizes and set up and programmed hex nuts, and hex bolts made exact-as-original sizes. I set them up to run as I would for a production operation job with a bar feeder and parts catcher so could make multiple part fast. I'd work late or come in on weekends to use a vacant Mori-Seiki SL-25 Lathe. I purchased the hex bar stock myself in 4145-M steel. I also made some OEM style washers same way only with round stock. We had a lot of scrap H-13 bar ends lying around so material cost me nothing. I still have some 351505 5/8" flat washers and 356515 steering wheel washers and all of my CNC Programs I wrote myself (NOT with a CAD program) so can always make more.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    BW    Posted 01-14-2021 at 21:03:49 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • Steve...thanks, you have obviously put in a ton of work to keep it as original as possible (and the pictures I have seen of your tractors are quite impressive).
    Originally set out with a goal of restoring mine in the same way but I dont expect quite the same results for my first project. Every piece of the tractor will have been rebuilt and my goal is to get it painted correctly for now. Figure I can always work on (swap out) some of the smaller details like the ones you mentioned once it is up and running (all major parts are original).
    Or...if it turns out as I hope, may have to pick up another one...learning a ton from this one (and this forum)

    Steve Dabrowski    Posted 01-15-2021 at 19:33:16 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • My experience was to do the painting of the mechanical portion as the last part of the effort. Doing the hood and fenders (light grey parts) early on and placing them aside is a good way to start.

    Kevin    Posted 01-14-2021 at 12:17:04 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • If you scrounge around on google, there's many photos of Ns on the assembly line. A lot can be gleaned from that. even in B&W

    BW    Posted 01-12-2021 at 19:55:24 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • Thanks Tim/Bruce, appreciate the replies.
    I dont want to bore the forum with a question on every bolt, just thought there may be a “original restoration” guide or something of the sort. Most will be pretty evident as you have stated, was just some small details that I question....ie: caps for radius rods, would they be installed after and thus have zinc plated nuts or would they have been installed with the rest of the frame and the nuts would have been painted? Will probably just go with my gut on each part, it will be close enough for anyone around here!
    I will be just happy if it runs after all this!
    Thanks again

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 01-13-2021 at 06:19:52 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • Like I said below, think logically on how an assembly line functions. They don't build the tractor then paint the whole thing at once like a $20 Earl Schieb job. An official "originality guide" --- NO. There have been some attempts to make lists, but every one I have seen has had some errors and incorrect information in them. One popular book is the Peterson & Beemer "N-Series Originality Guide". There are a lot of nice pictures in it, most all show at least one part not correct and there is much text in it that also is incorrect. Others like the old N-Series site I showed below made attempts to list what was original, but it too had flaws, and we're not just talking about paint codes. Individual parts made at the Rouge or from an outside supplier, would be painted, mated up on the line, and fastened from a bin of nuts, bolts, washers, and pins. The best way is to find someone that has an untouched original tractor and use for one reference. I know of only 2 or 3 fellas that own all-original, untouched, 9Ns and 8Ns. There are also some very good DVDs in our SUPPORT forum which have been converted from the original 16mm films showing original tractors and such and make excellent originality guides. Finally, Dennis Carpenter reproduces many exact-as-original parts, owns a lot of the original tooling, and is licensed by Ford, unlike most other suppliers. Many just buy his stuff and offer it up but with a percentage markup. Go to the source. DC makes many of the nuts and bolts that came with the tractor. If you don't know, Ford used a lot of fine thread carriage bolts. Carriage Bolts are no longer made with fine threads in the industry. Other exact OEM hardware includes the Dome Headed Dash and Air Cleaner bolts, and rear wheel nuts and bolts. "...I will be just happy if it runs after all this!" Why wouldn't it? Paint jobs have nothing to do how the mechanics and electrical systems function. A true restoration would be a total dismantling and rebuilding, testing, and then painting before assembly. Go to the John Smith LINK and see his project tractors. Others like Steve Dabrowski and Harold Cooke have done excellent restoration jobs as well.


    FORD N-TRACTOR – PETERSON & BEEMER BOOK:

    *NOTE: This is NOT a true originality guide. Use at your discretion.

    FORD TRACTOR REPRODUCTION PARTS – DENNIS CARPENTER:


    Tim Daley(MI)

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 01-12-2021 at 18:25:39 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • "...Things such as the nuts holding oil filter..." Do you mean the two bolts securing the oil filter housing onto the block with as there are no nuts on the oil filter housing otherwise. MPC's list every nut and bolt on the tractor but many are left just as they were assembled -cad plated, zinc plated, black oxide, brass, chromed, et al. Think logically. Parts like the head would be assembled on the block and then the entire unit painted so the studs and nuts would also be painted. Many pictures are incorrect and many 'originality' books are incorrect too. Wheel nuts were not painted. The wheel studs would have been painted on the line so studs were too so when wheel assembled nut would be cad or zinc plated and wheel stud would be painted. Hat rims were zinc plated and thus not painted. Parts on the line from outside suppliers would be assembled as are. Special fasteners like dash bolts and air cleaner bolts got assembled on the line. Original OEM early 9N tractors with aluminum hoods were not all nice an shiny polished aluminum as pictured in some books. The OEM aluminum hoods, dog legs, dash, and steering box and were painted standard Ford Dark Grey. There are some lists like this pictured her from the old web site N-eris.com but some items are not correct. email ne if you want to know about a certain part.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Bruce(VA)    Posted 01-12-2021 at 17:00:38 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • Air cleaner= red with zinc plated clips-unpainted

    Battery fuel door...knob black---latch red [yes,for real][mistake by vendor, never changed by Ford on 8ns][zinc plated on 9-2ns]

    Choke knob- red

    Dist. cap --frt.mt=tan...side mt. black

    Drag links including boots= painted red

    Ford emblem= chrome script and edge with red background or aluminum emblem with unpainted script and edge,with red background.

    Timing cover and bolts =red

    Fuel tank--terned plated [dull zinc plating color]

    Rear rims---zinc plated

    Manifold=red

    Muffler and tail pipe= plated...not painted

    Wiring tube=painted red

    Starter button and solenoid=red[if replaced,they were zinc plated and not painted]

    Dash bolts=zinc plated

    Bruce(VA)    Posted 01-12-2021 at 16:59:02 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Original look
  • PART NAME

    8N COLORS

    PART NAME

    8N COLORS



    Air cleaner

    Red with decal

    Guage Faces

    Black-White Letters


    Axle Housing

    Red

    Guage Trim

    Black


    Axle hub

    Red

    Hood

    Lt Gray


    Battery cable

    Black Insulation

    Hood Side skirts

    Lt Gray


    Battery cover

    Red with decal

    Ignition Switch

    Unpainted


    Battery tray

    Red

    Light Switch

    Unpainted


    Battery/Fuel Door

    Lt Gray

    Lug bolts & nuts

    Zinc plated


    Battery/Fuel Door Knob

    Black

    Manifold

    Red or Flat Black


    Brake drums

    Red

    Muffler and Pipe

    Black or plated


    Brake pedals

    Red

    Oil Filter

    Red with decals


    Breather cap

    Red

    Oil Filter Bolt

    Zinc Plated


    Cable Ends and Hardware

    Unpainted

    Oil Pan

    Red


    Carburetor

    Red or unfinished

    Position Control Lever

    Red


    Choke knob

    Unpainted Metal

    Proofmeter Face

    Black-White Letters


    Clutch pedal

    Red

    Proofmeter Trim

    Black


    Cylinder Head

    Red

    PTO Knob

    Red or Plain


    Dash Panel

    Red

    PTO Lever

    Red


    Distributor Cap

    Black Plastic

    PTO Shaft Cover

    Red


    Drag Link

    Red Black Boots

    Radiator

    Black


    Drawbar

    Red

    Radiator Cap

    Black


    Engine Block

    Red

    Radiator Hose

    Black Rubber


    Fan

    Red

    Radius rods

    Red


    Fan belt

    Black Rubber

    Rear End Housing

    Red with PTO decal


    Fan shroud

    Red

    Rear rims

    Zinc plated


    Fender mounting bolts

    Unpainted

    Rear wheel centers

    Lt Gray


    Fenders

    Lt Gray

    Running Boards

    Red


    Ferguson emblem

    N/A

    Seat & Spring

    Black


    Ford emblem

    Silver script and edge on Red

    Spark Plug Wire Tube

    Cadmium-Plated


    Front Axle Extension

    Red

    Spark Plug Wires

    Unpainted-Black


    Front Hub

    Red

    Spart plugs

    Unpainted


    Front Rims

    Lt Gray

    Starter

    Red


    Front Timing Cover

    Natural Aluminum

    Starter Button

    Unpainted-Steel


    Fuel Line

    Unpainted-Steel

    Steering Wheel Nut

    Plated Acorn Nut


    Fuel tank

    Cadmium-plated

    Three-Point Hitch Arms

    Red


    Gearshift

    Red

    Throttle lever

    Cadmium-plated


    Gearshift boot

    Black

    Throttle lever base

    Cadmium-plated


    Gearshift knob

    Red (early) Black plastic (later)

    Tie rods

    Red


    Generator

    Red

    Timing Cover bolts

    Zinc Plated


    Grill

    Lt Gray

    Toolbox

    Red


    Hood

    Lt Gray

    Touch Control Lever

    Red


    Transmission Housing

    Red with PC decal


    Valve Covers

    Red


    Ground strap

    Unpainted

    Wire Harness

    Unpainted

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