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Subject: F150 4.6 saga continues

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lonestarjeff    Posted 01-17-2019 at 17:52:49 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • F150 4.6 saga continues
  • It's been over a month since I started the timing chain job on my 2000 F150. While in there I decided to replace the oil pump too. Got things all pre-lubed & back together last week, did an oil & filter change, used the starter to spin the new oil pump while the injectors & coils were still unplugged.

    The engine started right up yesterday on the 2nd turn of the key. Noticed a couple of things right away....some oil smoke in the exhaust at start up & a strange smell as the engine heated up. I drove it around a bit yesterday & today(both of the symptoms above continued today)to see if the clattering was gone. It's much worse. The engine acts like there is no spark advance at all. Not sure how that's possible if the sensors are all working. I've got no codes at all, engine idles a little rough but steady, the right side valve train sounds a little noisy when cold(mostly clickity click).

    I cleaned the MAF sensor today & re-checked all the vacuum hoses...still running the same. Also, just in case I got a wacky tank of gas I added a bottle of octane booster to the fuel.

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-19-2019 at 00:52:43 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • pic of O2 sensors
  • I pulled both upstream O2 sensors, both came out surprisingly easy. The right side is the black one.

    Start-up this morning was very smoky & the engine runs worse than yesterday. Oil pressure shows good, but haven't put a real gauge on it. There was no oil burning going on before I did the timing chain job, so I'm inclined to think something I did started or worsened a leak-down around a valve on the right side. One cylinder must be fowled enough now to cause misfire. I'm trying to decide where to draw the line throwing parts at this point. If I'm right about the cylinder fowling it's just going to drive a new O2 sensor on that side crazy(not to mention that plug).

    I had this same smoking issue about 75k miles ago, but it self-corrected when I switched off of synthetic oil, so I'm debating with myself whether to sink more time & money into it or get rid of it.

    Bruce(OR)    Posted 01-19-2019 at 12:04:59 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: pic of O2 sensors
  • Your O2 tells me either your dumping too much fuel or crossed ign wires/misfire.
    I would play with it just long enough to verify I didn't do something wrong and then make a decision to either tear a problem child all the way down to the original stating point or sell it real cheap.
    No, I don't need it.
    For sale
    Starts, runs and drives. $800.

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-19-2019 at 12:55:43 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: pic of O2 sensors
  • It idled too smoothly 1st day to be crossed wires. Definitely oil(maybe excess fuel too)on the right side. Guess I'll pull the plugs on that side, see which is the culprit.

    Walt/Tx    Posted 01-19-2019 at 11:58:57 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: pic of O2 sensors
  • Thereís always the engine exchange option. $2500 plus $800 core charge you get back, free freight on both. Lot of work. I donít know labor cost to have it done . We have a Ford expert locally, small 4 bay shop in the country near Venus Tx. Best ford man I ever knew. I can get a turnkey price for you if interested.

    Walt

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-19-2019 at 12:49:36 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: pic of O2 sensors
  • Thanks Walt, I will definitely consider that. I'm kind of sentimental about the truck....even though some day I'm gonna hafta bite the bullet. :-)

    There's also a well-respected shop here about the same size. Not sure if they are Ford nerds though.

    Bruce(OR)    Posted 01-18-2019 at 21:10:34 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • Oil pressure gauge readings might be in order. Gasket missing/blown out?
    Funny odor might be coolant burning off.

    Bruce(OR)    Posted 01-18-2019 at 21:14:36 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • If you used red rags inside the engine, the lint should be plugging up the oil pick up screen also.

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-21-2019 at 22:55:59 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • No red rags. See my response below to Dave2N for the latest report.

    Dave2N    Posted 01-18-2019 at 06:23:15 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • Did you drop the oil pan during this whole process ?, Iíve seen Chevys with a cracked flex plate sound like a rod knock.

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-19-2019 at 13:01:54 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • Did not drop the pan, but I read a few flex plate forum stories. I don't have experience with knowing the sound of a rod knock. Seems like it would be louder & lower frequency than a pre-ignition or detonation knock.

    mhb@ufe    Posted 01-17-2019 at 19:08:54 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • We had a 2005 F250 with a 5.4 at work that had similar symptoms. If you tried to drive it hard it would show a code for lean condition on multiple cylinders. Turned out to be the fuel pump drive motor control module.

    Mark

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-19-2019 at 13:05:14 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • No codes so far, but I looked around for the equivalent part on the 4.6.....they made several versions over the modular engine years. We'll see if it eventually throws a code.

    WER-fl    Posted 01-17-2019 at 18:48:06 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • Try removing the O2 sensor upstream of the cat converter and and run the truck to see if it makes a difference. If it improves then the cat is clogged. Note, it will be loud.

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-19-2019 at 13:26:13 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • As noted above, I pulled both sensors yesterday. Haven't tried running it yet. I'm wondering if the sensors have a terminal life span. At 225k, that seems like a good time to replace.

    Dave2N    Posted 01-20-2019 at 12:15:07 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • If you donít have O2 sensor codes I wouldnít replace them. Especially since the Chinese replacements are are hit and miss. Can you check you fuel trims with scanner? Did you remove the oil pan? Was there anything interesting in it. Does it start up, with no delay? Ex. Extended crank. Have you done a compression test on motor? It sounds like a crankshaft or camshaft position sensor. But it should be blowing some codes. Anyway you miss connected cam sensor? 4.6 are great motors. You timing looks balls on. Anything in intake system. Like a mouse nest? Seen them build a condo in a air box.

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-21-2019 at 22:52:43 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • Extended crank in certain conditions(after 1st drive of the day & cool down)has been going on for the last 3-4 years. No scanner, no oil pan drop, no compression test.....no codes so far. I've pulled the cam sensor connector to check it, seems to be fine.

    Pulled the plugs on the right side saturday. #2 is black like the right side o2 sensor, but oily wet. Years ago that cylinder started having leak-down issues after using synthetic oil for a few thousand miles. The cylinder never fouled out during that time, but I got a good fogging every morning on start-up until I went back to conventional oil. Since then(75k miles ago)this is the 1st sign of oil smoke I've seen. The only reason I can come up with is the truck sat for over a month while a did the timing kit.

    I still can't relate any of these "new" symptoms to the engine noise that sent me down the path of changing out the timing kit. Unless....that valve was already sticking because of a seal going south(hence the pre-kit tapping). Then, after a month of sitting, the seal cracked or split & now it's leaking like a sieve.

    I wish now I had looked closer at things under that cam before closing things up.

    Rocky Carr    Posted 01-21-2019 at 23:41:08 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • Jeff, I'm coming in on the tail end of this so I will likely ask questions or make comments already discussed. With that said, these engines Only really had 3 basic issues. Broken exhaust manifold bolts, worn valve guides and timing chain noise. There is a hydraulic lifter/tensioner that tightened the chain automatically. Those would bleed down causing rattle on startup. Since you bought a chain kit, I'm guessing it came with a new one as well as the nylon tensioners. The scary part is that these are zero clearance engines. If the timing chain is off they will indeed bend valves. As I recall there are no timing marks to align the timing gears, cams etc. There was a tool that locked the cams in position and another that locked the crank. These were to be locked down prior to disassembly because very little movement was needed to get the cams and crank far enough out of position to bend a valve. A valve bent very slightly can cause a very light engine miss that may be interpreted as a rough idle and cause noise. I personally would do a compression test and or a leak down test to verify the valves are all sealing. By now You have likely figured out why shops generally don't want to attempt big repairs on high mileage engines. At some point its just cheaper to install a rebuilt unit and that likely costs more than the vehicle is worth. Feel free to email me or call me if you would like to speak in person.

    Rocky in MO

    lonestarjeff    Posted 01-22-2019 at 20:45:52 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • Thanks for chiming in, Rocky. Yes, the timing kit I installed came with all new guides & tensioners. The kit did have timing alignment marks on both chains & sprockets. There was a Romeo or Windsor kit to choose from(my truck has a Romeo engine). Apparently, there are numerous differences in the two.

    I used a cam lock tool to do the kit, but no crank lock. The new crank sprocket came indexed to the new chains.

    I pulled the plugs again today on the right side, very strange thing....yesterday #2 was fouled black, so I cleaned it up & changed the coil. Today, #2 was still clean after a 30 minute drive, but the engine still had a misfire the entire drive. When I pulled #3 it was fouled black, so I cleaned it up & changed the coil. Took it for another drive.....misfire the entire trip, but no more smoke. Finally got a service engine light while out driving, but not for a cylinder misfire....it was for EGR pressure sensor. :-(

    Dave 2N    Posted 01-31-2019 at 20:29:50 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • How does it idle? Is the misfire under load? Does the Check engine light flash? A true misfire should set a code and flash light CEL. Because itís damaging the engine. What is the Code #? I keep going back to intake or fuel starvation. Removing the O2 from pre cats would or should eliminate clogged cat. Clogged cats should cause misfires on bank that has issue. Clogged cats a pretty recognizable on a hard load. And there would be a lose of power. I agree with others that this motor is tired and since you have a personal connection to the vehicle should think about a reman. But I also know you want to know whatís wrong with it, before you throw in the hat.

    lonestarjeff    Posted 02-10-2019 at 22:04:07 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: F150 4.6 saga continues
  • The only code thrown since I started this was for EGR pressure sensor when I accidentally reversed the hoses. Never any indication of dead cylinder, but did have some fouling of #2 from oil leak-down while the truck sat for a month. It burned off after a drive.

    The idle was rather rough, but the throttle body was so dirty. Once I cleaned it things smoothed out. The engine seems to have normal power, but it clatters in rpm range of 1k-1.5k. There is a pending code for the evap system.

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