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Subject: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic

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Larry    Posted 12-12-2017 at 06:44:47 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Yesterday I posted on Magnetic Oil Pan Heaters. Was reading up on oil this morning. This is an interesting YouTube video on cold temps change in viscosity of Synthetic vs. Conventional. No I'm not pushing Amzoil. Just found this interesting. Hope others do also.

    Farmer Dan    Posted 12-12-2017 at 11:40:30 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Another point to consider is that -40C part. If it is really that cold outside I won't be doing anything on a tractor, I'll be in the house cuddling a hot cup and a shot of whiskey. Need to see a test like that done at -20C.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-13-2017 at 15:39:16 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Touché !!! If I need to be out in that cold temperature, I'm not going to be on a tractor that's for sure. I'd rather be inside a nice warm cab of x 4 x 4 pickup with a snow plow drinking hot coffee and listening to the Classic Country station. Like I said, in cold weather, I am more concerned with a good strong battery and an A-OK electrical system to turn over the engine than I am about whether the oil is warm enough. The oil will get warm once the engine warms up. If the engine won't turn over, and/or the battery is weak or dead, it doesn't matter how warm the oil is.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Dead Eye Dave    Posted 12-13-2017 at 06:47:01 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Well! We share some interests.....Janis and whisky. But not that whisky! Canadian rye whisky. And, in spite of the technical info here regarding oils I will continue to use synthetic oils and greases in my equipment. Always a contentious issue. Dave

    grizz    Posted 12-12-2017 at 15:48:22 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • farmer dan the hell with talking about oil at 40 below lets talk about that whiskey you mentioned whats your favorite ? I,m a Evan Williams fan

    HCooke    Posted 12-12-2017 at 20:20:18 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Buffalo Trace for me.

    Kirk-NJ    Posted 12-18-2017 at 05:06:29 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • How's the buffalo compared to Markers Mark? Always willing to try something new but never seen it at the store.

    Kirk

    Dave2N    Posted 12-13-2017 at 19:59:18 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Had Buffalo Trace in Nashville for the first time, good stuff.

    Farmer Dan    Posted 12-13-2017 at 09:19:03 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • I'll have to give it a try next time I'm at the liquor store.

    Farmer Dan    Posted 12-12-2017 at 17:17:25 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Southern Comfort and an ice cube

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-13-2017 at 05:54:06 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • I think that's a liqueur... nasty stuff...we use to call it "Smotherin' Comfort"...


    SOUTHERN COMFORT, or...


    -Tim Daley(MI)

    steveVa    Posted 12-12-2017 at 19:59:58 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • You need to try Virginia Gentleman. Also very good with an ice cube..

    Farmer Dan    Posted 12-12-2017 at 20:13:50 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • I have heard it was pretty good but I can not find it in stores locally.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-12-2017 at 17:23:27 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Your in good company but Janis didn't need the ice or a glass ;-)

    TOH

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-13-2017 at 05:56:43 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • The true Queens of Rock N' Roll, Grace & Janis -none better, none come close...

    GRACE & JANIS –QUEENS OF ROCK:

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Farmer Dan    Posted 12-12-2017 at 17:26:36 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • good music and good drinks

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-12-2017 at 13:02:25 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • The pour point of an engine oil is readily obtained from technical specifications that are almost universally available on the manufacturer's website. I don't know of a multi-grade engine oil with a pour point above -20C (the low temperature qualification temperature for grade 20W) so your test would not be real interesting or informative. Premium conventional "summer blend" mono-grade oils have a pour point commonly ranging between -30C (SAE 30) to -10C (SAE 50).

    Amsoil's -40C pour point demonstration is a contrived example using 5W30 oils and a test temperature at the absolute lowest extreme of the SAE requirements specifications (e.g. 0W). It is cherry picked to make their product look superior and it is not interesting or informative either.

    TOH

    Larry    Posted 12-13-2017 at 07:19:16 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Sorry to have infuriated and bored you. I was hoping that some found it interesting and interesting. I think some have and some were actual entertained. I did know it was a marketing ploy also. Nothing wrong with a little fun.
    One thing to remember there are a lot of people like you who are highly knowledgeable that are on this forum. There are a lot of people that aren't also. That is why they are on here. Just asking for help and trying to learn. Again sorry to have upset you.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-13-2017 at 09:13:49 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • You did not upset me in the slightest - Amsoil did. I am a big advocate of synthetic lubricants and use them almost exclusively. But that Amsoil demonstration is a charade - there are far better and more honest ways of demonstrating their product's superiority. Amsoil makes top end (and expensive) products and they are probably the best there is when it comes to providing technical specifications for their products. Unfortunately they feel the need to sully that with what I consider crass and somewhat dishonest marketing.

    TOH

    steveVa    Posted 12-12-2017 at 11:49:19 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • I agree, when it hits -40 I do not plan on doing a lot of tractoring. Matter of fact, if it hits -40 in Va., I am moving to the Bahamas. Interesting fact -40C = -40F...

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 12-13-2017 at 15:50:47 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Another fact: 0° Celsius equals 32° F. Water freezes at 32° F. Absolute Zero equals: -273.15° C or -459.67° F. One misconception many people often make is that Zero Degrees is Absolute Zero. It is not and very technical to explain here so look it up yourself if want to learn more. It's similar to the misconception that iron and cast iron are the same thing. They are two very different terms. It is only a coincidence that the word "iron" appears in both. The same can be said about Zero Degrees and Absolute Zero. Next week we'll discuss wind chill factor...

    Tim Daley(MI)

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-13-2017 at 16:35:03 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Well technically speaking the temperature agreed upon as "absolute zero" is in fact precisely zero degrees Kelvin (0°K) and/or Rankin (0°R) ;-)

    TOH

    Walt/Tx    Posted 12-12-2017 at 19:52:55 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • That is interesting Steve and I didn’t know it so this particular discussion was useful after all....lol

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-12-2017 at 10:14:13 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • So what do you think would have happened had they conducted that demonstration at -50C or -30C instead of -40C? The -40C was carefully chosen because it is ten degrees above the pour point of the Amsoil product (-50C) and just below the typical pour point of the conventional product (a bit under -35C). So you get a dramatic marketing video where their product pours smoothly and the competitor is an unpumpable gel. Yes, synthetic engine oils have lower pour points and better viscosity properties than conventional oils but both of those oils meet all of the SAE 5W30 viscosity grade requirements - in particular pumping down to -35C and cold cranking performance down to -30C. That is all that is required and all that is guaranteed by that grade label. The AMSOIL video is the sort of theatrical marketing hype that makes me want to scream.

    Education is a good thing so keep reading ;-) I'd suggest having a look at the SAE J300 requirements table. When you understand it and how engine oil viscosities are graded you will be well ahead of the vast majority of automobile owners.

    SAE J300 Requirements Table

    TOH

    Rustyal    Posted 12-12-2017 at 09:24:53 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • I just added some Lucas heavy duty oil stabilizer to an 8N. It barely flows at room temperature.

    36 coupe    Posted 12-14-2017 at 10:38:06 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Test a sample of your oil at zero degrees.

    Dead Eye Dave    Posted 12-12-2017 at 07:07:28 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • I use Amsoil 20W50 Z-Rod only! My 8N runs well on it and no oil consumption. I am in a very cold part of the world here and never have any trouble starting. Synthetics only in all of my equipment. Dave

    Charles Krammin    Posted 12-13-2017 at 08:57:37 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Honda does not recommend synthetics in their small one cyclinders air cooled engine, since they have no radiator, thermostat, oil pump oil filter and the oil is picked up from the sump by the timing belt and thrown up and over valves AND DECOPRESSION VALVE mechanism , located on valve gear drive.
    I just repaired one using synetic oil, that was pure black with low hours of operation. The dirty oil was flung up in the delicate decompression mechanism. causing it to malfunction. Was freed up with PB Blaster.
    Synetic oil is not right for "ALL engines" and you could void wattanty, by using a "non recommended manufactures specifications."
    Synetics work good in most automible engines however.
    The Honda engine was used on a wood spitter.

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-13-2017 at 10:14:26 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic

  • Straight from Honda:

    Honda engines are developed, tested and certified with petroleum based motor oils as a lubricant. Synthetic oils may be used; however, any motor oil used in our engines must meet all oil requirements as stated in the owner’s manual. In addition, recommended oil change intervals must be followed.

    Keep in mind many of today's synthetic oils are predominately highly refined (Group III) petroleum oils rather than more traditional built from scratch "test tube" synthetics like PAO's (Group IV) and esters (Group V). The blending process for commercial "synthetic" oils combines all of three categories of base oils in widely varying proportions and as a consequence broad generalities like synthetic versus petroleum are very blurry. In fact you will have to work long and hard to determine what proportions of those three categories are in an OTS bottle of "synthetic" oil because the vast majority of blenders do not share that information. What they do share is performance metrics which is what engine OEM's care about.

    TOH

    Charles Krammin    Posted 12-13-2017 at 21:00:42 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Straight from Honda telephone call: "We do not recommend synthetic oil in our 160 CC engines."
    Your statement from Honda says "Our engines"
    That is the point I am trying to get across "synetics are not for all Honda Engines and a person should use what is listed in the operators manual"
    Since PB blaster cleared up the stuck "decompression mechanism" and the oil was very black, What better proof for me telling the owner to use "What is stated in the manufactures handbook, in this case "30W or 10-30". He was using the "purpil named synethetic"
    Chares Krammin

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-14-2017 at 07:28:20 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • The Honda website is quite clear and unambiguous and in multiple places - synthetics are suitable for use in their engines as long as you follow the guide lines in the engine specific manual - no exceptions listed.

    The Honda GC-190 manual is also quite clear:

    Use 4-stroke motor oil that meets or exceeds the requirements for API service category SJ or later (or equivalent). Always check the API service label on the oil container to be sure it includes the letters SJ or later (or equivalent). SAE 10W-30 is recommended for general use. Other viscosities shown in the chart may be used when the average temperature in your area is within the indicated range.

    The other viscosities shown in the chart are SAE 5W-30, also for year round use, or SAE 30 for use only when temperatures are above 50F. There isn't a synthetic oil sold that does not exceed to the API SJ service category so that is not the problem. I would suggest the cause of this failure lies somewhere else. Like maybe the owner didn't change the oil as often as he said he did....

    TOH

    Charles Krammin    Posted 12-14-2017 at 09:21:18 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • Thanks Tom,
    The owners operator manual did not go into the detail yours did, and from now on , I will change an Quote from your text.
    The owner in this case, kept a very good record of his oil change, in his cell phone, and didn't appreciate, when my initial findings suggested such. Guess I lost a very good friend that brought his log splitter over to help me. I will suggest a oil change, more often as the engine does not have an oil filter
    I now think the problem, lies in the engine design.
    The dirty oil is picked up by the timing belt in the sump and disturbed up over the valve train gear, which has attached the "decompression mechanism" This decompression mechanism, has a very little spring, that causes the decompression mechanism, to return home. This was not happening in the motor examined. Maybe a new timing gear, that has the decompression mechanism and spring, which is very cheap, would solve the problem. I was quoted a $60 dollar fiqure to have a Honda qualified mechanic fix it.
    Charles Krammin

    TheOldHokie    Posted 12-14-2017 at 09:37:25 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • The crankcase gunked up for some reason. I'm a believer in keeping fault analysis simple so I'd also be wondering if someone may have run some chain saw mix through the log splitter engine. Folks are often reluctant to admit to their bad judgements....

    TOH

    Charles Krammin    Posted 12-14-2017 at 14:20:59 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: Oil, Conventional or Synthetic
  • My first item on analysis is "I wonder what problem the operator added to create the problem", and proceed to check the obvious, dirty gas in carb and tank, spark, air , garaged or set outside,filter, color of oil. and then ask him "What did you do or not due before the problem showed up?
    In my relations experience. the kids , filled the gas tank. The carb was full of water and I had to drain the whole fuel tank. I originally thought it was from setting outside or cap had been left off. Once I left, it happened again. Drain all gas again and then check the gas can used. Sure enough the kids left the gas can cap off, outside, and it was half full of water.
    In the GC190, wood splitter, the owner was very concensuss. I first thought , his helpful wife placed the waste oil back in the containor used and not marked it and changed oil using the waste oil. Containors of waste oil were marked with tape and pencil as such. Made wife mad at me for asking.
    The owner operator didn't want (and still hasn't) to believe my statement. "You oil was dirty". I saved it but he refuse to look at it. I think I contrivred the dirty oil with some of mine.
    End of story. He purchased a new motor from Harbor freight for $105.(different name then Honda). Gave me the old motor, I fixed it with the PB Blaster, and gave it to my friend who will probably use it to build a Go-cart for his grandkids. Me and my helpful neighbor are happy and guess I'll have to rent a wood splitter to split my wood in the future.
    I think an oil change "twice a year" for this splitter or at least, each year, before use, seasonally is the solution.
    Charles Krammin
    Charles Krammin
    I

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