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Subject: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning

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Brad    Posted 04-10-2020 at 22:18:19 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • TOH, in a previous post, told me "good luck" regards fabricating quick-detach for 8N Dearborn front end loader (http://www.ntractorclub.com/forums/nboard/messages/252614.html), and today I drove my tractor up to where implements are stored, so I could contemplate TOH's meanings while examining front end loader vs my tractor.

    I figured it was a good time as any to start taking measurements and drawing sketches, since I had both fenders off the rear tires removing dings and dents. My preliminary assessment was that it was going to be simpler than I had first thought to create quick disconnects on 8N's rear axle.

    It's not entirely clear what's going to happen to the front mount as yet, & one worry to be figured out, is how best to deal with headlights?

    Having fleshed out a few basic concepts, I headed back and began reading through the different front end loader manuals in the library section, hoping to determine my model, since I hadn't been able to locate an ID tag as yet.

    What I found was a bit surprising. Rather than Dearborn front end loader, closest match appears to be Wagoner FEL designed to fit Ford N series tractors.

    Looks like my next step is going to be taking FEL pictures, and comparing manuals to nail down model/manufacturer, before anything else happens.

    It is rather a bit amazing to consider how many different varieties of manufacturers & models of FELs there were back in the day, as reflected in the number of FEL manuals Library contains. :-)

    Some manuals showed cutting away part of 8N's grill for FEL installation, which I am loathe to do. Thinking there's got to be a better solution?

    URL shows quick detach concept; weight and balance of Wagner rig is way different than what's shown in URL video, but the concepts are similar, even though weight and balance/support leg's positioning will be completely different, I think video conveys idea of quick-disconnect well enough.

    Brad    Posted 04-15-2020 at 08:37:21 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Archives great resource for loader planning
  • Reading through past archives for other people who've put a front end loader on their tractor gave me a heads up to something I would not have seen coming:

    Seems one lacks sufficient limbs to operate FEL, while having a good time using hand throttle, so a foot feed throttle is a helpful addition when installing a front end loader.

    Who knew? Apparently RR & some folks working for Dowden :-) lol

    Since ruminating adding power steering assist to my 8N (part of my entertainment is modding everything until I'm happy with it, irregardless of dissenting "peanut gallery" ;-), archive posts mentions Dowden has interference issues with PS, so next fun project to contemplate is a DIY foot feed throttle, and writing a follow-up article for "how to" section. Fun, Fun! lol :-)

    Now, how in the world, does one suppose I've reputation being an old curmudgeon? :-p lol

    Yes indeedy do, archives are quite an invaluable (lol) valuable, most helpful resource indeed!

    thumb image

    tractorfix    Posted 04-12-2020 at 11:17:47 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • I modded a super six loader for semi quick attach for an old Dexta I had. It certainly didn't come off and stand there like the one on my Kubota, rather I had a set of chains hanging from the drive shed. I could pull under it, remove a few pins and unhook a few hoses and back out while the boom was left hanging there. When I needed it again, I just drove under put in my pins, hooked up my hoses and off I went. It worked pretty well.

    Brad    Posted 04-12-2020 at 12:05:21 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • That's what I'm talking about! :-) I knew somebody out there had "got 'er done" :-) Working with what's available & creating a doable solution, that's my kind of problem solving. Kudos! Thanks for sharing :-)

    Mike W    Posted 04-12-2020 at 06:22:47 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • Certainly a lot of challenges to overcome in making N series tractors do things that Henry and Harry hadn't seen coming back in '39.
    My pet project for when or if I ever get the time is to adapt a hydraulically driven 4x4 pickup front axle to the 4600 loader tractor, which we lovingly refer to as the Pig on Ice. Not a high priority since there are others here with better traction.
    Even modern loaders are difficult to line up and reattach. Bad enough that one is dissuaded from performing the job often enough to develop proficiency. Major vice is clearing the rear mounts with the front axle.
    From what I can tell by mere experience, the designers of modern agricultural loaders carefully placed each element of the framework to block access to the service points on the host tractor, and then laughed maniacally imagining some poor farmer trying to do any work on the machine.

    Ultradog MN    Posted 04-12-2020 at 05:36:45 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • Sounds like you have some good fabrication skills.
    Kudos. Not all do.
    I won't go into any recommendations on how to build it.
    But I will say this:
    Put your talents to work building a loader for a newer tractor. One with power steering. Better yet, put your energy toward acquiring and rehabbing a tractor like a Ford 3400 or 3500. Most of those came with a loader - and power steering - and a lot of other great features besides.

    Brad    Posted 04-12-2020 at 06:54:02 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • I appreciate your advice.

    When I was deciding what tractor to purchase, it was a balancing act between simplicity, parts availability, cost, ease of maintenance and capabilities.

    I went through the process of looking at tractors such as you've described, and I realized that bang for the buck, a newer tractor with more improvements would provide greater utility for my purposes than Ford 8N tractor that I liked and admired.

    I often times give myself excellent advice, and then seldom end up following it lol :-)

    So naturally, I ended up choosing Ford 8N tractor that I've long-time appreciated, admired, and wanted.

    That's the advantage of being an old curmudgeon, bachelor-type country boy: nobody to please but myself, and doing what I please.

    Anybody sees this Ford 8N tractor when I've got it where I want, with all the modifications and improvements, will realize that it would have cost far less time, energy & effort to have bought newer tractor already having these features.

    What is the fun in that? No R&D, no fabrication, no experimentation, no trying out different ideas to see how they work out.

    There's another way to look at cost involved:

    Entertainment value creating and building = more expensive than purchasing a more sophisticated/capable tractor.

    The look on someone's face when they see my creation, and their logic says "But, but it's better to... why don't ... why didn't ... I would've ... = priceless. :-D,

    Yep, that would about describe me! I'm an old curmudgeon lol :-)

    Ultradog MN    Posted 04-12-2020 at 10:05:32 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • Next week I will have been on these boards for 19 years.
    I've seen a lot of new guys come and go. For many people an N is the only tractor they will ever need or want as they are remarkable little machines that are capable of doing a lot of useful work.
    I'm glad they've made the right choice for them
    Then there are others who would like to improve an N and make it do more.
    Live hydraulics is an example. There's enough interest that guys like Hokie sell a live hydraulic kit. You can add remote hydraulics to his kit which further improves the tractors capability.
    Some have boosted an N's horsepower by one means or another.
    Other improvements like power steering have been tried with some success. 12 Volts is a common improvement as is a position control kit or a drawbar hanger for the 9/2Ns
    A tiller capable transmission (Howard) can be found for them.
    Or a Sherman transmission to give them more gears.
    But some things aren't going to be so easy; like live pto, differential lock, a more loader capable front end or superior brakes.
    In the past week or so you've asked about making your N tiller capable and making a better loader for it.
    I don't doubt that you could do both.
    But I still say if you want those features at least consider buying a later tractor that had them from the factory.
    You can have ALL of those things in one package and not be re engineering most every feature on the tractor. Believe me, there will still be lots of opportunity for noodling and tinkering and scheming and dreaming on a newer one but you'll start with a machine with all of those features designed to work with one another and not have them all grafted on like various afterthoughts. A later machine with those things would ultimately be cheaper too and in the end have a higher resale value. Resale is a priority to most of us here but...
    I don't tell you this stuff because I don't value Ns. I tell you this because in 19 years I've seen a Lot of guys who were very enamored of Ns to begin with but were very glad to have updated to a newer machine when they finally did, myself included.
    And we were very glad they left their N alone when it came to trading up.
    Happy Easter to you and all here.
    Jerry

    Brad    Posted 04-12-2020 at 10:33:56 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • Jerry, very nice of you to care enough to reply ... I admit that I'm a bit of an odd duck ... I modify all of my stuff ... good example would be my work truck ... many improvements have been made ... more are on the way ... others are under consideration ... liftgate, spotlight, flashing caution light, bucket lift, folding sides/roof, bed-attachment ... Journey is as fun and fulfilling as reaching the destination...

    I believe I will refrain from further posting on this board, & concentrate on getting things finished with pictures uploaded to Imgur, then post "show and tell" as projects are completed.

    I've already written one DIY "how to" article and submitted it to NTractor Club, and I may write more articles, but who would be interested in an article titled "how to morph a comfy office chair onto Ford 8N tractor"? As you've noted, there are few fans of my way of doing things.

    Ultradog MN    Posted 04-12-2020 at 15:23:45 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • I hope you don't think I'm against making things, doing modifications to things and Jerry rigging stuff.
    Making things work requires more thinking. And it's the thinking and problem solving part that perhaps we both enjoy.
    Here's my current project. It's been keeping me entertained for a year now and collecting scarce parts for 4 years.
    This tractor was a gasser with a Select O Speed transmission when I bought it. I hate those transmissions so I sold it and put an 8 speed in its place. Then I rebuilt the engine as a diesel.
    Using some parts from a row crop model and some from an all purpose model required a lot of little things and locating hard to find parts.
    Here are some photos of "the little things".
    I drilled out the spot welds and changed the "bridge" to convert from a paper type gas air filter to the oil bath diesel filter in the radiator shroud.

    Then welded the components into the gas nose.

    Now the diesel air filter bolts in.

    I also modified the gas battery tray to fit in a diesel tractor by removing 3" out of the center of it then welding it back together.

    Then of course there were all the steering parts. Rebuilding the steering column required some Delrin bushings to replace the original ball bearings which are no longer available anywhere. Even my local bearing house couldnt get them.

    And finding and modifying the tie rod ends for the power steering cylinders and having one chrome cylinder rod made cause it was bent and pitted.

    It has all been a lot of fun and I'm hoping to have it running this summer.
    Having a ready made, turn key thing just wouldn't be as much fun.
    My only point in the previous posts were to start with a more capable tractor than an N.
    But I know you're gonna do what you like anyway and I respect that too.

    Brad    Posted 04-12-2020 at 15:58:05 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • There are some unusual designs you don't see everyday...2N Ford 2-engine tractor with cab & snowblower ... https://youtu.be/36Ktzw035Ic?t=2

    Ultradog MN    Posted 04-12-2020 at 15:39:28 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • PS,
    Here's a photo of it before I tore into it and another as it sits in my messy garage.
    Am working on the sheet metal now. Will get paint on it if it ever warms up here.

    Ultradog MN    Posted 04-12-2020 at 10:11:32 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • I mistyped.
    It should read resale is NOT a priority for most of us.

    Tim Daley(MI)    Posted 04-11-2020 at 12:16:30 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • FWIW & FYI: FORD/DEARBORN never manufactured anything -except the early plows. Every implement was manufactured by an outside supplier under contract with Ford/Dearborn which allowed Ford/Dearborn to slap a decal on them with their own part numbers and model numbers. Ford built plows at the Rouge for the first few years under Ferguson-Sherman Mfg. Loaders were built by A.F Wagner Iron Works; Danuser Machine Co; Superior Pipe Specialties Co; Towner Mfg. Co; Western Equipment; and others. Ford had final say in design and such so manufacturing was to be to their specs in cooperation with ta basic design. You can get a copy of the MPC - SEE LINK - from our MANUALS forum to see each model and get ideas from there. MPC's don't show any actual blueprints with dimensions and specs but you can get the idea and even better if you have an actual unit to work with.

    Tim Daley(MI)

    Brad    Posted 04-11-2020 at 12:39:46 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • Tim, great information as always! :-) ... I had no idea all those implements were re-branded from subcontractors lol ... So if ever I build 3 point, self-propelled rototiller, I can just slap a "Ford" label right on there! lol

    {evil grin} Imagine someone trying to look up parts for a DIY implement! >8-@ ... What part number should we give it? How about: "8Nur2scr3wD" ;-D lols

    FYI, FWIW ... for whatever reason, URL link with your post is kaput, so I've inserted "live" link with this post :-)

    TheOldHokie    Posted 04-11-2020 at 09:23:30 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • You are not the first guy to discover his Dearborn loader is a Wagner. The WM series was a very popular loader with the N-series crowd. Heres a few more thoughts for you.

    Quick connects for the attachment points should be no problem. Since you are going all in on this I suggest you research the design used on the Sauuder loaders and front blades - a drive in and out one pin hookup. A picture of the rear attaching socket that mounted under the differential is shown below. I had one of the loaders on my 9N and while it is a "quick detach" design the weight distribution and balance on it was a bear to deal with and not all that "quick" in practice. I am not trying to be negative about your idea but I think you are going to find that will be the major issue with the Wagner as well.

    I notice you have made no mention of the hydraulic pump. Is your Wagner a fully hydraulic model with its own pump? If so you are going to have to deal with that as well. Wagner and Dearborn mounted their pumps to the loader frame and used the frame as the reservoir which means the pump has to come off with the loader. If I were going to go to the effort of making the loader QD I would remount that pump to the tractor and use the tractor's hydraulic sump for the oil supply. That way you can keave the pump and loader valve on the tractor and use them full time for auxiliary equipment and/or live hydraulics for the tractor.

    One last word of advice - watch your fingers and toes. Right after I got the Sauder loader I was in the process of mounting it when it slipped off the floor jack I was using and dropped down trapping my fingers in the lift arm pinch point. I was thoroughly trapped, working in an isolated area, and unable to reach the jack to free myself. This was way before cell phones and the outcome could have been really bad had I not brought my 6 year old son with me. I was able to coach him on getting the jack back under the frame and raising it just enough to free my fingers. Fortunately nothing broken or severed but I couldn't use that hand for weeks and it took several months for the feelng to return to the fingers. So do be vigilant and watch where you put your hands!!!

    TOH



    Brad    Posted 04-11-2020 at 12:08:11 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • Safety is doubtless rule number one. I'm glad your hand recovered. That was quick thinking working with your son coaching him to get you freed.

    I'm usually working solo with my dog "supervising," but I don't think she would be very much help if I got into trouble. Not the most cooperative critter in the world, that's how she got her name "Cookie" lol.

    When I first brought her home from rescue shelter, she would only come to you for a piece of cookie, so when you said "cookie" that's when she came, and that's how Cookie named herself. :-) I've got a "Cookie," not a Lassie! lol

    I like the notion you've mentioned of having live PTO coming from front of tractor, I'll have to cross that bridge when I come to it. Some of the unforeseen circumstances dealing with aftermarket front-mounted bumper's interference fit with FEL frame has got me consterned for now; one of several conundrums I'll have to puzzle my way through :-) Fun! Fun! lol

    Thanks for the picture, I like the idea of a one-pin retainer. Rather than jack stands or something which could potentially slip/break/fail, I'm contemplating stand legs, that would be removed from loader once FEL was hooked up.

    My quick-disconnect concept is based upon a pickup camper's mechanical, corner-leveling jacks: when jack is in position, spring-loaded plunger drops into detent, locking camper jack in place.

    I'm picturing it happening this way:

    1. FEL frame has been modified, mounting plate that goes on axle has "funnel mouth" & spring loaded detent plunger (think like a door latch) and a retention cross-pin (secured once plunger is in place) for safety. End of FEL frame, where frame needs to insert into axle-mounted quick-disconnect receptacle, has a protruding plug with holes matching up for receptacle's retaining pin & plunger.

    2. FEL frame is held in place for mounting by it's removable stand-legs. Tractor drives up to FEL frame and protruding plug enters axel receptacles, where plunger locks FEL frame into quick connect, & safety-retaining pin is inserted (hitch pin secures safety pin).

    3. Remainder of FEL connections I've got ideas/concepts that will depend upon how things "match up," when I get to that portion of FEL quick-disconnect project.

    I have yet to design quick detach for FEL bucket, but I have perused some DIY videos (see URL), and I'm inclined favoring multiple-use bucket concept:

    https://youtu.be/jauUkLrF9Nc?t=70

    JK-NY    Posted 04-11-2020 at 07:21:28 [URL] [DELETE]        [Reply] [No Email]  
  • Re: 8N quick-disconnect loader planning
  • Usually the lower part of the grill is cut out to allow a front mounted crankshaft driven hydraulic pump. At one time my dad had a smaller John Deere (8n size)with a loader which we removed a couple of times. It was not a quick-detachable loader. We removed the pivot pins and the lift cylinder pins where they mounted to the loader frame attached to the tractor, unhooked the hydraulic hoses and suspended it by hanging it from a tree branch with a notched board in the far side of the branch. It was a bit of a job to hook back up so it was only removed a couple of times. I suggested to my dad we could make a frame to hang it from but we found that as soon as we removed it we had a use for it. Now I have a larger John Deere with a quick detach loader and it has never been removed in the almost 20 years itís been here.

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